Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

[unofan]

I edited this in after you'd already responded, so I'd like to ask it again:

Taking race and everything else out of the picture, how are you okay with the double standard when it comes to grand juries and their treatment of cops vs. anyone else? If you or I did what any of these cops did, we'd be indicted at the least.

No response to this?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

No response to this?

It was a good question, I gave it an 8 out of 10 and a golf clap.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

No response to this?

I'm not okay with double standards, but the question is a complex one. You and I are not in a position to enforce the law. There are not people (a minority of people, mind you) that hate us simply because of the profession you and I are in. People are not coming after us because of the profession we are in. We cannot take the same actions as police officers do, if someone does come after us.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Incorrect. There were actions that should have been taken, but how the officer handled it was incorrect (at least that quickly). Hypothetical here: IF the kid ignored warnings to drop the toy gun, and a reasonable time had passed, and the toy gun was still in his hand, I would believe that the officer would be justified in neutralizing the threat as he saw fit.

HOWEVER, this officer ignored all that and got trigger-happy after a couple seconds (IIRC that was the time passage, please correct me if I'm wrong). That is NOT how the procedure should go.

I feel this way because a gun doesn't know age. Kid or not, he potentially had a lethal weapon (by appearance) in his hands.

Except the first thing you guys immediately say is "well if he didn't have the toy gun, he wouldn't have gotten shot." While this is true, by stressing it you're trying to place the majority of the blame on the kid. By doing that, you're completely disregarding facts like kids playing with toy guns like that every day without getting shot by police. You're trying to emphasize the actions of the victim over the actions of the police officer.

It's incredibly ignorant to say things like "don't be a criminal" or "don't have the toy gun." 99% of the population, you and me included, do legally questionable things every day that could put us in a confrontation with police. And yet when there is an incident that people like me question, the immediate response is a unilateral protection of the police. The victim "obviously was doing something wrong", "you're not a police officer, you can't be questioning their actions!"

The majority of police officers are good people. The problem is, those police officers and their administration do nothing, and in some cases protect, about the bad ones.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Except the first thing you guys immediately say is "well if he didn't have the toy gun, he wouldn't have gotten shot." While this is true, by stressing it you're trying to place the majority of the blame on the kid. By doing that, you're completely disregarding facts like kids playing with toy guns like that every day without getting shot by police. You're trying to emphasize the actions of the victim over the actions of the police officer.

It's incredibly ignorant to say things like "don't be a criminal" or "don't have the toy gun." 99% of the population, you and me included, do legally questionable things every day that could put us in a confrontation with police. And yet when there is an incident that people like me question, the immediate response is a unilateral protection of the police. The victim "obviously was doing something wrong", "you're not a police officer, you can't be questioning their actions!"

The majority of police officers are good people. The problem is, those police officers and their administration do nothing, and in some cases protect, about the bad ones.

The CLE situation I blame the officer more, because his actions were so outrageous. However, he shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.

 

[Armadillo]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Except the first thing you guys immediately say is "well if he didn't have the toy gun, he wouldn't have gotten shot." While this is true, by stressing it you're trying to place the majority of the blame on the kid.

Absolutely false. Saying someone isn't blameless isn't the same as saying they shoulder the majority of the blame. Again, there's rarely, if ever, a perfect white hat/black hat scenario.

 

[Jimjamesak]

The CLE situation I blame the officer more, because his actions were so outrageous. However, he shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.

Why? Because a kid was playing with a toy gun? Like kids have been doing for over a hundred years? JFC!

You're doing exactly what I said, trying to place the emphasis on the victim.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Why? Because a kid was playing with a toy gun? Like kids have been doing for over a hundred years? JFC!

You're doing exactly what I said, trying to place the emphasis on the victim.

Despite I just said the opposite. I'll ask if you can read, too.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Absolutely false. Saying someone isn't blameless isn't the same as saying they shoulder the majority of the blame. Again, there's rarely, if ever, a perfect white hat/black hat scenario.

BS, that's exactly what you guys are doing. You're trying to emphasize the kid with the toy gun putting the officer "in a bad situation" over the officer using lethal force on a kid! Completely deemphasizing the actions of the officer.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

BS, that's exactly what you guys are doing. You're trying to emphasize the kid with the toy gun putting the officer "in a bad situation" over the officer using lethal force on a kid! Completely deemphasizing the actions of the officer.

What part of "I blame the officer more" don't you get?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I think he's saying the officer shouldn't have been hired in the first place. Maybe?

 

[Jimjamesak]

Despite I just said the opposite. I'll ask if you can read, too.

No you're doing both. I'm not an idiot, I'm not a troll (at least in this thread).

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

In short, the CLE officer is an embarrassment to the police force. Whether it was due to lack of training, or personal disposition, I can't answer that. Either way, a kid lost his life due to this guy's actions, and it's a shame.

However, I cannot, in good faith, completely absolve the kid of any blame in this day and age.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Despite I just said the opposite. I'll ask if you can read, too.

Except you only say that when people question you when say:

"I feel this way because a gun doesn't know age. Kid or not, he potentially had a lethal weapon (by appearance) in his hands."

Or MNS saying

"A realistic looking one without the orange tip so people can identify it as a toy.

None of that excuses the officers actions, but it did play a role in what happened whether you like it or not."

You guys are placing the emphasis on the toy gun. The emphasis of this situation should not be on the toy gun.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Except you only say that when people question you when say:

"I feel this way because a gun doesn't know age. Kid or not, he potentially had a lethal weapon (by appearance) in his hands."

Or MNS saying

"A realistic looking one without the orange tip so people can identify it as a toy.

None of that excuses the officers actions, but it did play a role in what happened whether you like it or not."

You guys are placing the emphasis on the toy gun. The emphasis of this situation should not be on the toy gun.

I think the key word here is "emphasis." We may actually be on the same page, or close to it.

I put emphasis on the officer's irresponsible actions. I can't leave the kid blameless, however.

 

[Armadillo]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

In short, the CLE officer is an embarrassment to the police force. Whether it was due to lack of training, or personal disposition, I can't answer that. Either way, a kid lost his life due to this guy's actions, and it's a shame.

However, I cannot, in good faith, completely absolve the kid of any blame in this day and age.

Removing the orange cap, which was there to differentiate toy guns from real guns EXPLICITLY because cops were unable to tell the difference in the heat of the moment, was STUPID and played a role in the situation playing out as it did. How much of a factor was it? Maybe 5-10%, to throw a number out there. That leaves 90-95% of the blame on the cop, which seems about right. The kid's responsibility wasn't major or even significant, but it wasn't non-zero, either.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Removing the orange cap, which was there to differentiate toy guns from real guns EXPLICITLY because cops were unable to tell the difference in the heat of the moment, was STUPID and played a role in the situation playing out as it did. How much of a factor was it? Maybe 5-10%, to throw a number out there. That leaves 90-95% of the blame on the cop, which seems about right. The kid's responsibility wasn't major or even significant, but it wasn't non-zero, either.

This.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Removing the orange cap, which was there to differentiate toy guns from real guns EXPLICITLY because cops were unable to tell the difference in the heat of the moment, was STUPID and played a role in the situation playing out as it did. How much of a factor was it? Maybe 5-10%, to throw a number out there. That leaves 90-95% of the blame on the cop, which seems about right. The kid's responsibility wasn't major or even significant, but it wasn't non-zero, either.

Which is precisely why we don't understand the amount of times you and Brent have brought it up immediately after someone says "the officers should face consequences for their actions".

 

[Armadillo]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Which is precisely why we don't understand the amount of times you and Brent have brought it up immediately after someone says "the officers should face consequences for their actions".

Because based on this and other (pedestrian) hypotheticals that have been discussed, it comes across as though you guys think that removing the cap or resisting arrest or walking out into traffic are completely irrelevant matters in these cases. And let's not play coy here, you're doing a lot more than just saying that officers should face consequences; you've accused them of systemic racism and oppression in this and other threads.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I think the key word here is "emphasis." We may actually be on the same page, or close to it.

I put emphasis on the officer's irresponsible actions. I can't leave the kid blameless, however.

Except you only say that after saying that the situation could've been avoided if he didn't have the toy gun or saying something ignorant like "don't be a criminal." By making these statements you are trying to move attention from the officer to the victim. You are constantly bringing up the fact of the toy gun. You say "I can't leave the kid blameless."

Basically you're saying "the officer was wrong but..." when it should just be "the officer was wrong."