Patty Kaz 2010

[freak]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I think that the point most people may be making, is that on a deep team, it is harder to determine the overall impact of a high scorer to the team's overall success.

It can quite easily be argued that Paton was far more important to UNHs success than Bendus to Mercyhurst, given the relative depth of each team.

And that because of that depth of talent, that perhaps Bendus's big stat line is partially a reflection of the talented players around her.

Or to put it more simply...remove Bendus and Paton from their teams, and where would each team be?

Another interesting hypothetical would be if the two swapped places on their respective teams.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Or to put it more simply...remove Bendus and Paton from their teams, and where would each team be?

Another interesting hypothetical would be if the two swapped places on their respective teams.

The 2nd hypothetical I think is what's interesting.

The 1st is a total apples-to-orange comparison that's used by anyone wanting to rationalize giving the award to a good player on a weaker team.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

The choice is obvious...

Good morning.

 

[LakersFan]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Or to put it more simply...remove Bendus and Paton from their teams, and where would each team be?

Another interesting hypothetical would be if the two swapped places on their respective teams.

By the logic of the first argument, Agosta must not be very valuable to her team since Mercyhurst had a better a regular season this year than last, three Patty Kaz finalist slots and Olympic tournament MVP notwithstanding.

Bendus's value is actually demonstrated quite well by the scoring void left by Agosta. Bendus scored 21 more points this season than last in order to take up the slack, with Bram picking up and additional 19 (so far). Scanzano's point total has remained about the same, which makes sense since she has played on Agosta's line.

The second hypothetical is indeed the more interesting of the two. Not having seen UNH play this year, the only thing I could say with some degree of confidence is that UNH would score more shorthanded goals under the switching scenario.

One statistic to highlight Bendus's value IMO: In the five Mercyhurst losses/ties this year, Bendus has been negative (in terms of +/-) only once, the 5-5 tie with Clarkson. While hockey is a team sport, when the game is looked at shift by shift, Bendus's line is rarely beaten.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

One statistic to highlight Bendus's value IMO: In the five Mercyhurst losses/ties this year, Bendus has been negative (in terms of +/-) only once, the 5-5 tie with Clarkson. While hockey is a team sport, when the game is looked at shift by shift, Bendus's line is rarely beaten.

Looking at the individual's performances in games against the toughest competition, and looking at their performances in losses, is what often separates the Kazmaier candidates. Play in the clutch is a criterion.

The Chu vs. Bauer comparison is probably the closest to this one. You have one player on pretty much the best team in the country, against a player on a team that was more like 6th or 7th and could be seen as having underachieved.

Does that suggest Paton can win? Well I think there are a few differences. I won't deny that Chu's prior reputation and some sense of spreading the wealth (Bauer had won the previous year) were a factor. Chu had led the nation in points-per-game, though there was a big "Union effect" in that result (thankfully it's now a lot tougher to score on Union). But I think what did set her apart legitimately was the kind of argument LakersFan just made. Chu & the team performed well by any measure when Chu was on the ice in defeats that season, against the tougher opponents, and my judgment was that she was better in that kind of comparison than her competition during the regular season. (Bauer of course went on to have one of the best postseasons ever)

 

[Trillium]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Or to put it more simply...remove Bendus and Paton from their teams, and where would each team be?

Another interesting hypothetical would be if the two swapped places on their respective teams.

It's kind of from that perspective that my vote would have to go to Bendus as the better overall player, although I recognize that the Kaz is actually supposed to be for performance this year only. I have seen Bendus play with Mercyhurst and Paton play with UNH. However, previously I had the pleasure to watch both on many occasions with their former PWHL teams--and neither played on particularly strong teams at that point.

In that context, Bendus made far more of a difference to her team, and was able to rack up more points in the league.

There is no question both are excellent players.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

However, previously I had the pleasure to watch both on many occasions with their former PWHL teams--and neither played on particularly strong teams at that point.

If you were a voter, I think you would need to avoid comparing their performances from PWHL days, because it could introduce a bias for or against that has nothing to do with who they are as players today. For example, someone could have defensive liabilities earlier in her career that her college coaches have corrected by the time she is an upperclassmen. Neither were as productive as rookies as they are today, so the important thing is not the starting point in the PWHL, but the level to which they have ascended.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

If you were a voter, I think you would need to avoid comparing their performances from PWHL days, because it could introduce a bias for or against that has nothing to do with who they are as players today. For example, someone could have defensive liabilities earlier in her career that her college coaches have corrected by the time she is an upperclassmen. Neither were as productive as rookies as they are today, so the important thing is not the starting point in the PWHL, but the level to which they have ascended.

I agree....I brought up that reference point merely as a means of comparing their performances more directly to one another because they play in different conferences and on teams on different strengths.

Believe me, neither had liabilities in earlier days that needed developing. As I mentioned, I have seen both play more recently for their current teams too.

 

[RStarr]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

And what would Raty's contribution to Minnesota's overall success be?

It bothers me that most easily dismiss this young goalie because she is a frosh. They're a few girls who could seriously challenge Paton and Bendus for this award so if Raty was not up for serious consideration, she wouldn't be a top 3 finalist.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Eastern bias.

 

[Travelingman]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Eastern bias.

Eastern Bias?? NOT AT ALL. In fact, I think Raty is sensational!! I have seen Raty play on several occassions and I think she has made a huge difference to Minni team this year and to her National Team. I think she is that good. I just think given her talent and only being a freshman she will be in the running possibly in all of her college career. I do think it is harder to choose between Paton and Bendus comparitively so maybe the committe will choose Raty for that reason. ARM - They are all outstanding that is why they are on the Top 3 list. I was never implying that Bendus is not deserving, she is an outstanding player. I do think however that Paty and Raty have more value to their teams overall record this particular season. If you removed them from their respective teams neither team makes playoffs, etc. IMO. Just my opinion Arm, so no eastern bias here.

 

[MICZamboni]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I do think however that Paty and Raty have more value to their teams overall record this particular season. If you removed them from their respective teams neither team makes playoffs, etc. IMO. Just my opinion Arm, so no eastern bias here.

I just don't buy that whole argument about taking a player away and what kind of team do you have. Punish Bendus because she is on a deep team? Why? If she leads a group of really good players on a team, that doesn't carry as much if not more weight?

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I think the Olympic absence hurts Raty more than the freshman stigma. One of the criterion is performance in the clutch. Other candidates were present for their most important conference games of the season. We don't have that set of information for Raty. I don't think it hurts her so much that she doesn't deserve to be top three, but I think it prevents her from winning.

And it's clear to me the Olympics hurt her more in the WCHA process than it did the Kazmaier process.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I just don't buy that whole argument about taking a player away and what kind of team do you have. Punish Bendus because she is on a deep team? Why? If she leads a group of really good players on a team, that doesn't carry as much if not more weight?

Agreed, and as I suggested in previous posts, the Kazmaier voters have tended not to punish players for being on good teams -- in fact, pretty much the opposite.

It does seem to come up a lot in writers' reasoning for baseball MVP, and I think it's absurd. But the Kazmaier criterion seems to be different from how most people perceive a "most valuable player" award.

 

[Travelingman]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I just don't buy that whole argument about taking a player away and what kind of team do you have. Punish Bendus because she is on a deep team? Why? If she leads a group of really good players on a team, that doesn't carry as much if not more weight?

Just my opinion. It is much harder to earn points ect. when you do not have a big supporting cast. That is my point and my only point. UNH has 9 freshman this year. A very inexperienced team and Paton had to carry that on her shoulders.

The baseball thing I don't get either Dave because baseball is and individual sport. Hockey is a team sport and the 5 players you play with on your shift have the ability to make you better and vice versa.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Baseball isn't a team sport?

 

[Charlie Jig]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

And what would Raty's contribution to Minnesota's overall success be?

It bothers me that most easily dismiss this young goalie because she is a frosh. They're a few girls who could seriously challenge Paton and Bendus for this award so if Raty was not up for serious consideration, she wouldn't be a top 3 finalist.

Having watched this "young" goalie all season, I could not agree with you more. Being a goalie parent from way back, it is pure delight for me to watch her in net as she does her butterfly position from post to post with nary a hitch in her motion. She makes it look so easy!

Secondly, the Kaz is based on the action of the player in that season. Who knows what 2010-1011 will bring. This is for the here and now.

 

[LakersFan]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I think the Olympic absence hurts Raty more than the freshman stigma. One of the criterion is performance in the clutch. Other candidates were present for their most important conference games of the season. We don't have that set of information for Raty. I don't think it hurts her so much that she doesn't deserve to be top three, but I think it prevents her from winning.

And it's clear to me the Olympics hurt her more in the WCHA process than it did the Kazmaier process.

I wonder if the committee/our opinions would change if Räty had missed the same games due to injury that she missed due to playing in the Olympics?

Here is where missing the games due to the Olympics hurts Räty on paper when I look at her results. She lost on the road at Wisconsin (didn't play the second game). Here next big road test is at Harvard, where she gives up one goal in two games. The away games at UMD would be a huge swing either way, but she does not play those games. At home she was great, but less so away. Missing those two games at UMD are missing data points that a hard to overlook.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Baseball isn't a team sport?

Nah, the majority of the time its more of a collection of people doing individual things.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

At home she was great, but less so away.

She made 11 starts on the road and gave up 11 goals. She sat out a period at UND, but played 4 OTs on the road, so it works out pretty close to a GAA of 1 on the road. Hardly Sieve City. I know the stats don't look like much, but you could put together a pretty impressive highlight package off her saves in that one game in Madison. As for road tests, Ohio State was a better offensive team than Wisconsin, and almost as good as UMD.