Patty Kaz 2010

[gano]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

First, I would like to congratulate Vicki Bendus. Congratulations!!!

Second, I would like to say Shame! to ALL teams that have skipped the banquet in the past, and not just the team that did it this year. However, since we are in th present, that is what I will refer to. If three out of the four teams can attend, I see no reason the fourth can't as well. I know UMD wants to win a championship on Sunday. So does Cornell, they were there. I know UMD played a late game on Friday. So did the Gophers, they were there. Call it what you want, I will call it poor taste.

Third, I believe only three people can make the final three. That means that if you have more than three great players, somebody is not going to make it in. And no matter where you draw that line, somebody is going to be on the other side of it. Saying you wish somebody who didn't make it in did is fine. Saying somebody deserves to make it in is fine. Saying somebody got hosed because they didn't make it in kind of crosses the line, because you are saying one of the others doesn't deserve it. Don't get me wrong, I wish Emily West and Anne Schleper were in the final three, but they weren't. I wish they were in the final 10, but they weren't. I believe these are two great players who deserve recognition. But so are the other 10 that made the final 10.

I don't believe any player has been targeted by an Anti-UMD. If that happens it shameful. You cannot punish a player for the sins if the coach. That would be like beating up a kid because you don't like their dad. However, if Coach Miller believes that her players are getting ripped off just because of her actions (and I don't), there seems to be one very simple answer.

Also, a lot of this "persecution complex" sounds a lot like the playground bully complaining they don't have any friends.

I am off to the big game. Good luck to the Cornell fans and the nice UMD fans (binnyrus and company). The mean ones (and I assume none of them are posters), not so much.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I don't really believe this is a case of Kaz voters trying to stick it to UMD. Blais didn't win PotY in the WCHA either

Could also indicating WCHA voters discriminating against UMD. But PoTY is different from the Kaz to some degree.

and I think a large part of that is her regular season wasn't as dominant as her postseason has been. Had she been on the same pace at the time that the WCHA or Kaz committee voted, I'd guess that she'd have received more votes in each case. UMD had a huge second half; so did Blais.

I think a big part of the Kaz is clutch play. IMO, Blais and Bendus were clearly the top two in this criterion, even before the WCHA tourney.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Cool that you're insinuating that you're pro tainting what is supposed to be an amazingly beautiful award.

Not at all...but I am a realist who is at least smart enough to recognize that humans are by definition never completely rational beings either at the best of times. It IS only human nature especially when tough decisions are being made between relatively equal choices, to also take into account your feelings about people, even if only unconsciously. Miller's personal capital among voters certainly doesn't help tip the balance in such circumstances, as she hasn't exactly been the best possible ambassador for promoting support for UMD and by extention, its players to the outside world.

To use an example, if you yourself are having a hard time making a decision about something, whose advice are you more likely to listen to, all other things being about equal: someone you particularly like, respect and admire--or someone who you have trouble relating to their approach, methods and are less inclined to want to emulate? And if either of those advisors was trying to match you up with a potential business or life partner they knew, which of the partners would you initially be more pre-disposed to? Honestly?

The fact that an important part of Kaz voting is for outstanding off ice contribution too, any pre-existing (mis?)perceptions or stereotypes (again, potentially sub-conscious) surrounding the personal conduct of those associated with UMD, help even less. No, it's definitely not fair, but it's human.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I would like to say Shame! to ALL teams that have skipped the banquet in the past, and not just the team that did it this year. .

You cannot punish a player for the sins of the coach. That would be like beating up a kid because you don't like their dad. However, if Coach Miller believes that her players are getting ripped off just because of her actions (and I don't), there seems to be one very simple answer.

Also, a lot of this "persecution complex" sounds a lot like the playground bully complaining they don't have any friends.

Exactly. All very well said.

 

[RStarr]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Exactly. All very well said.

Funny. This whole time I thought Miller and UMD was blatantly ostracized first.

But dont get it twisted. This isnt a anti/pro UMD debate for me. My beef is with the voters. And so far, its really only hypothetical beef. Nowhere did I say I was convinced that the voters were punishing UMD. I said if they were, then they should feel...


anyway, game time. GO CORNELL!

 

[Trojangoalie241]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Dave- I was at the Patty Kaz dinner in 2008 and I can tell you that Wisconsin was in fact NOT there. I'm going to assume that your comment about UMD only attending in 2003 was a brain fart. They were there in 2008 when Martin was in the top 3.

Gano- Minnesota had a player in the top 3 and also did not have a championship game to play the next game. That is why they were at the brunch on Saturday.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Dave- I was at the Patty Kaz dinner in 2008 and I can tell you that Wisconsin was in fact NOT there.

Ok, thanks.

I'm going to assume that your comment about UMD only attending in 2003 was a brain fart. They were there in 2008 when Martin was in the top 3.

I didn't say that. I was using 2003 as an example of UMD having attended the dinner.

Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this topic. Congrats to UMD on the title. Congrats to Blais on thoroughly destroying everything in her path after the Kaz voting. If Kaz final 3 snubs have been helpful at all in terms of motivating UMD in 2001, 2002, and this year, then I'm not sure why Miller would ever want to change a thing about the process

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Like others before her, perhaps she'll add the NCAA MOP award and that will help define her career.

She did. And it will.

 

[DIGDOGS]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Also a note--the Kaz award used to be at night. Of course Minnie was there--they had someone up and they didn't have a game. UMD was there in 2008. What everyone forgets was that UMD caught an NCAA scheduled flight back to Duluth last year that Saturday. That is WHY they weren't there, because they had reserved tables. As for this Saturday, the decision not to take the team never even went through Shannon this year. I don't blame Wisco for not going in 2008 (I too was there), and I don't blame UMD for not going this year either.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Based on Trillium's post in the other thread. I'm going to make the following list

Year, Kaz Winner, Frozen Four MVP, who I think would've won the Kaz if the voting were held at the end of the season (assuming away any nonsense about cutoffs).... see if you agree.

2001, Botterill, Rooth, Rooth
2002, Whitney, Zamora, Zamora
2003, Botterill, Ouellette, Botterill
2004, Ruggiero, Wendell, Ruggiero (but close)
2005, Wendell, Darwitz, Darwitz
2006, Bauer, Vetter, Bauer
2007, Chu, Bauer, Bauer
2008, Vaillancourt, Martin, Martin
2009, Vetter, Vetter, gee this is a tough one...
2010, Bendus, Blais, Blais

The Frozen Four MVP has typically been one of the nation's best 3 or 4 players already -- Vetter in 2006 being the only real exception. Kaz winner typically made the Frozen Four, 2002 and 2007 being the only exceptions. I'd say the Frozen Four MVPs had better overall seasons than Kazmaier winners at least half the time.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Year, Kaz Winner, Frozen Four MVP, who I think would've won the Kaz if the voting were held at the end of the season (assuming away any nonsense about cutoffs).... see if you agree.

2004, Ruggiero, Wendell, Ruggiero (but close)

I'd agree, but for this one and possibly 2003, where some thought Ruggiero was more deserving. Best player, best team, huge in big games, most points. Up until the Frozen Four in 2004, the opinion may have been that Wendell was a great player but Ruggiero was just in a league of her own, but I think the H2H meeting showed that wasn't the case. You can say that AR's numbers were more impressive because they were put up by a D, but the final demonstrated that was due in part to her sometimes playing O first, D second. So I'd switch the result, and keep the "(but close)".

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

I'd agree, but for this one and possibly 2003, where some thought Ruggiero was more deserving. Best player, best team, huge in big games, most points.

Not sure I follow this sentence. Botterill certainly had bigger points than Ruggiero that season. Botterill figured on every point in all of Harvard's 2-1 wins that year. Ruggiero proceeded to get all those points once Botterill was gone.

Up until the Frozen Four in 2004, the opinion may have been that Wendell was a great player but Ruggiero was just in a league of her own, but I think the H2H meeting showed that wasn't the case. You can say that AR's numbers were more impressive because they were put up by a D, but the final demonstrated that was due in part to her sometimes playing O first, D second. So I'd switch the result, and keep the "(but close)".

OK, well I'd argue that since Wendell wasn't even in the top 3 (though yes I thought she should have been second) she'd have more ground to make up. Do you really pin that final on Ruggiero being too offensive-minded? Sure she was on the ice when Minnesota pulled away in that first minute of the third period. My recollection is she just got beat by Darwitz on the 1st goal, plain and simple. And it was a true team failure -- I recall basically everyone in Harvard moving on the wrong direction on that first Minnesota goal. Is that all enough of a demerit to put her behind? I'm not so sure. My reasoning was that while she was outplayed in the Frozen Four, she still had done enough. I don't think the characterization that she neglected her defensive responsibilities was accurate for the duration of the season.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

Not sure I follow this sentence. Botterill certainly had bigger points than Ruggiero that season. Botterill figured on every point in all of Harvard's 2-1 wins that year. Ruggiero proceeded to get all those points once Botterill was gone.

Sorry, the topic there was 2004, not 2003. I should have just put the 2003 piece in parans perhaps.

OK, well I'd argue that since Wendell wasn't even in the top 3 (though yes I thought she should have been second) she'd have more ground to make up. Do you really pin that final on Ruggiero being too offensive-minded? Sure she was on the ice when Minnesota pulled away in that first minute of the third period. My recollection is she just got beat by Darwitz on the 1st goal, plain and simple. And it was a true team failure -- I recall basically everyone in Harvard moving on the wrong direction on that first Minnesota goal. Is that all enough of a demerit to put her behind? I'm not so sure. My reasoning was that while she was outplayed in the Frozen Four, she still had done enough. I don't think the characterization that she neglected her defensive responsibilities was accurate for the duration of the season.

As for your first sentence here, I thought we were trying to "get it right" in hindsight with a late vote (such as Blais not making the top 3 this year.) I'm not blaming Ruggiero for the loss. She had a lot lower production than Wendell over the course of the season, and one can say that's because she plays D so it is a lot harder to get points, but given the ice time that she got and the fact that she was down between the circles a lot, I don't think that is the case. Wendell stood out both when Darwitz went out (she carried the Gophs that first weekend vs Mercyhurst) and in the biggest games (3 points in each WCHA playoff game, 4 pts in each NCAA game.) So if we say when all was said and done, who had the best season, I'd say KW. Her numbers for the entire season aren't as dazzling, but she played much of the year on the "2nd" line with two frosh on her wings. So it is close, but you asked if we agree ...

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2010

So it is close, but you asked if we agree ...

Ok, I had forgotten a lot of details. I now remember agreeing with you more, now that you bring me back. My first instinct was to pick Wendell, then I thought about it too much.