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Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
- Thread starter Patman
- Start date
XYZ
Smoking in the selection room.
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
I don't have time to do it now, but if you remove out all the items that are not logically applicable to the point he started with...there isn't much left standing.
I don't have time to do it now, but if you remove out all the items that are not logically applicable to the point he started with...there isn't much left standing.
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
Anyone who can't see a difference between Hitler's invasions, war crimes, and crimes against humanity and the war in Iraq is being willfully blind.
Chomsky = Godwin's law fail.
Edit: not that I'm in any way saying that I endorse the Iraq war or that we didn't make mistakes. But seeing NO difference from Hitler is supreme idiocy and erroneous moral equivalence.
Seriously?
Anyone who can't see a difference between Hitler's invasions, war crimes, and crimes against humanity and the war in Iraq is being willfully blind.
Chomsky = Godwin's law fail.
Edit: not that I'm in any way saying that I endorse the Iraq war or that we didn't make mistakes. But seeing NO difference from Hitler is supreme idiocy and erroneous moral equivalence.
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
Hitch summarizes Noam nicely.
"In short, we do not know who organized the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, or any other related assaults, though it would be a credulous fool who swallowed the (unsupported) word of Osama Bin Laden that his group was the one responsible. An attempt to kidnap or murder an ex-president of the United States (and presumably, by extension, the sitting one) would be as legally justified as the hit on Abbottabad. And America is an incarnation of the Third Reich that doesn't even conceal its genocidal methods and aspirations. This is the sum total of what has been learned, by the guru of the left, in the last decade."
Hitch summarizes Noam nicely.
"In short, we do not know who organized the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, or any other related assaults, though it would be a credulous fool who swallowed the (unsupported) word of Osama Bin Laden that his group was the one responsible. An attempt to kidnap or murder an ex-president of the United States (and presumably, by extension, the sitting one) would be as legally justified as the hit on Abbottabad. And America is an incarnation of the Third Reich that doesn't even conceal its genocidal methods and aspirations. This is the sum total of what has been learned, by the guru of the left, in the last decade."
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
On Osama being "murdered," I'm going to try a tiny bit of devil's advocacy here (warning: my heart's not really in it). Chomsky's whole bit is that while we think we are free because, among other things, we think we have equality before the law, the legal system is actually a fiction that privileged people violate whenever it serves their purpose. An assassination is that kind of a violation. Ergo...
There are plenty of points to attack his evaluation, but there is a logic to it that, if say you changed the footing of the argument to Janet Reno and Waco, many "patriotic" folks who are all up in his face would suddenly find it compelling reasoning.
This is what you get when your assumption is that everybody else is trapped in The Matrix. Nothing can shake that faith. To the rest of us it looks ridiculous... but of course that's just because we've been programmed.
On Osama being "murdered," I'm going to try a tiny bit of devil's advocacy here (warning: my heart's not really in it). Chomsky's whole bit is that while we think we are free because, among other things, we think we have equality before the law, the legal system is actually a fiction that privileged people violate whenever it serves their purpose. An assassination is that kind of a violation. Ergo...
There are plenty of points to attack his evaluation, but there is a logic to it that, if say you changed the footing of the argument to Janet Reno and Waco, many "patriotic" folks who are all up in his face would suddenly find it compelling reasoning.
This is what you get when your assumption is that everybody else is trapped in The Matrix. Nothing can shake that faith. To the rest of us it looks ridiculous... but of course that's just because we've been programmed.
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WeWantMore
New member
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
They protest every time we **** up and bomb a wedding. I'm sure a couple hundred K go into Zardari's personal account and "a diplomatic crisis is averted." The FCPA doesn't apply to the State Department.
They protest every time we **** up and bomb a wedding. I'm sure a couple hundred K go into Zardari's personal account and "a diplomatic crisis is averted." The FCPA doesn't apply to the State Department.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
The State Department sets up commercial interests section. Corporation X, wishing to do business in country A, pays a fee to DoS. DoS then pay the fee (less a handling charge) to the appropriate people in country A to ensure that the proper licences are issued and the sale is completed.
Works with governments and sports organizations.
Sir, you may be onto something here....
The State Department sets up commercial interests section. Corporation X, wishing to do business in country A, pays a fee to DoS. DoS then pay the fee (less a handling charge) to the appropriate people in country A to ensure that the proper licences are issued and the sale is completed.
Works with governments and sports organizations.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
good. this president is conducting the war against AQ the way it SHOULD be. offense, offense, offense.
of note in that article and VERY scary. the dead guy kashmiri(sp?) has people or had people casing Lockeed as he wanted to kill their CEO. uhm...Lockheed isn't Miller Brewing Company, how the hell can they be casing that place w/out the CIA knowing? or were they aware and waiting for AQ to make a move?
and reports of U.S. commandos in North Waziristan on helicopter raids grabbing insurgents for questioning...that sounds like the Bin Laden compound yielding information that is actionable immediately.
good. this president is conducting the war against AQ the way it SHOULD be. offense, offense, offense.
of note in that article and VERY scary. the dead guy kashmiri(sp?) has people or had people casing Lockeed as he wanted to kill their CEO. uhm...Lockheed isn't Miller Brewing Company, how the hell can they be casing that place w/out the CIA knowing? or were they aware and waiting for AQ to make a move?
and reports of U.S. commandos in North Waziristan on helicopter raids grabbing insurgents for questioning...that sounds like the Bin Laden compound yielding information that is actionable immediately.
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
Who got this wrong?
Lockheed does not make Predators; that would be General Atomics in Rancho Bernardo, CA. General Atomics is a privately owned company whose history does trace back to General Dynamics, but was never related to the GD division in Fort Worth that produced the F-16 (which Lockheed bought in 1993). General Atomics didn't even begin producing aircraft until right around the time Lockheed bought the Fort Worth facility.
Lockheed does, however, manufacture the Hellfire missiles which are commonly used by Predators in their attacks.
So was Al Qaeda targeting the wrong company, or did the reporter mistakenly assume that they were targeting Lockheed because of Predator when they were actually targeting Lockheed because of Hellfire (or other) reasons?
Also, "performing surveillance" of Lockheed could be anything from sneaking in at night commando-style to hanging out at the end of the runway with a telephoto lens with all the rest of the plane-spotting yahoos. 17,000 people work at the plant, and given the TX demographics, that means that approximately 16,998 cars enter the plant every day (there was a rumor that 3 people actually carpooled, but I'm not sure I believe it). When I worked there, some of the BAE engineers had a game where they tried flashing more and more ridiculous articles at the guard gate to see if they would be let in - I think we all agreed that the winner was the cigarette pack. So we're not exactly talking about Fort Knox here...
Daily Beast said:
Who got this wrong?
Lockheed does not make Predators; that would be General Atomics in Rancho Bernardo, CA. General Atomics is a privately owned company whose history does trace back to General Dynamics, but was never related to the GD division in Fort Worth that produced the F-16 (which Lockheed bought in 1993). General Atomics didn't even begin producing aircraft until right around the time Lockheed bought the Fort Worth facility.
Lockheed does, however, manufacture the Hellfire missiles which are commonly used by Predators in their attacks.
So was Al Qaeda targeting the wrong company, or did the reporter mistakenly assume that they were targeting Lockheed because of Predator when they were actually targeting Lockheed because of Hellfire (or other) reasons?
Also, "performing surveillance" of Lockheed could be anything from sneaking in at night commando-style to hanging out at the end of the runway with a telephoto lens with all the rest of the plane-spotting yahoos. 17,000 people work at the plant, and given the TX demographics, that means that approximately 16,998 cars enter the plant every day (there was a rumor that 3 people actually carpooled, but I'm not sure I believe it). When I worked there, some of the BAE engineers had a game where they tried flashing more and more ridiculous articles at the guard gate to see if they would be let in - I think we all agreed that the winner was the cigarette pack. So we're not exactly talking about Fort Knox here...
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
We just have to avoid the getting the rest of the world to think our pattern is going out and killing whoever we think is a threat to run an organization that is committed against us...OBL was clearly a criminal and deserving of his fate...what if AQ change the brand name? are we going to kill the guy who is in charge of the next radical outfit proclaiming we are the great devil? Not saying I'm against that necessarily, we just need to make sure we know what we are willing to do and keep the pressure on.
If you're out of luck or out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg
We just have to avoid the getting the rest of the world to think our pattern is going out and killing whoever we think is a threat to run an organization that is committed against us...OBL was clearly a criminal and deserving of his fate...what if AQ change the brand name? are we going to kill the guy who is in charge of the next radical outfit proclaiming we are the great devil? Not saying I'm against that necessarily, we just need to make sure we know what we are willing to do and keep the pressure on.
If you're out of luck or out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
While we're questioning the rationality of AQ . . .
It seems to me that one of the more immediate effects of a strike against Lockheed might be to goose the DoD into ordering a couple more batches of Hellfires . . . from Lockheed.
military-industrial complex, FTW!
While we're questioning the rationality of AQ . . .
It seems to me that one of the more immediate effects of a strike against Lockheed might be to goose the DoD into ordering a couple more batches of Hellfires . . . from Lockheed.
military-industrial complex, FTW!
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead
I should clarify my position. The way Obama is conducting the war using Afghanistan as a staging ground for special-ops and/or Predator attacks either in afghanistan or pakistan targeting AQ and Taliban is exactly the way I thought the war would be conducted from the outset (small, targeted, co-vert, using CIA assets, secretive, not the big 120,000 man push like this is WWII, that doesn't work here). since AQ doesn't represent countries and they don't have standing armies per se, they're spread out all over the place so this type of limited targeting seems to be the best idea.
I'm not particularly concerned with how other nations perceive our killing of OBL, Kashmiri or... Mullah Omar and/or Zawahri (if or when that happens). they're mass murderers, and not just of americans. I don't think India or Spain for example would give a **** if we continued to blow AQ leaders to dust for 100 years.
that's part of the problem for people like us though. where and when does this end? either the middle eastern countries of pakistan, yemen, syria, iran, saudi arabia get serious about capturing or killing these guys on their own or this really *could* last 50 years or more.
If they change the name of AQ to the "united front against exxon" it won't change their goal which is mass murder or "infidels" or basically non-islamists. too that end they're not giving us a choice. they either go through and bomb india, germany, u.s. to get a reaction or we keep them on the run (with CIA, Special-Ops, hellfires) and too busy to get to the execution phase of their murderous plots.
it's a sad reality but one which they brought to us. I only hope it really doesn't last 50-100 years but it seems like they're willing to continue ad-infinitum
I should clarify my position. The way Obama is conducting the war using Afghanistan as a staging ground for special-ops and/or Predator attacks either in afghanistan or pakistan targeting AQ and Taliban is exactly the way I thought the war would be conducted from the outset (small, targeted, co-vert, using CIA assets, secretive, not the big 120,000 man push like this is WWII, that doesn't work here). since AQ doesn't represent countries and they don't have standing armies per se, they're spread out all over the place so this type of limited targeting seems to be the best idea.
I'm not particularly concerned with how other nations perceive our killing of OBL, Kashmiri or... Mullah Omar and/or Zawahri (if or when that happens). they're mass murderers, and not just of americans. I don't think India or Spain for example would give a **** if we continued to blow AQ leaders to dust for 100 years.
that's part of the problem for people like us though. where and when does this end? either the middle eastern countries of pakistan, yemen, syria, iran, saudi arabia get serious about capturing or killing these guys on their own or this really *could* last 50 years or more.
If they change the name of AQ to the "united front against exxon" it won't change their goal which is mass murder or "infidels" or basically non-islamists. too that end they're not giving us a choice. they either go through and bomb india, germany, u.s. to get a reaction or we keep them on the run (with CIA, Special-Ops, hellfires) and too busy to get to the execution phase of their murderous plots.
it's a sad reality but one which they brought to us. I only hope it really doesn't last 50-100 years but it seems like they're willing to continue ad-infinitum