Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Well done! I assume your email was about TGBB and RB needing to go and long live the scream of the Cosworths?

Thanks! Long live the scream of Cosworth up the main straight @ Elkhart Lake.

I'm working on another email about the emphasis of passing as important, when in actuality, racing is set up to have minimal passing. I'll float my thoughts out here. The entire qualifying process determines who is fast and who is slow. Then they line up fastest to slowest and race. Theorehtically, since they are lined up in order of speed, we should not expect much passing, much like F1. No one complained at the old dirt track years ago about the lack of passing. Often times you just couldn't get the guy in front of you. Why then, is so much emphasis put on passing in open wheel or even CRAPCAR? Racing isn't about passing, it's about getting your car to be as fast as possible for qualifying to get the best starting spot. The only thing that is bad is if there's an aero issue that hinders passing.

You can induce some passing with tyre/brake wear or fuel loads, but even that is contrived.

Push to pass. Why give the IRL guys 100 extra hp to pass in 2012? We've seen the push to pass is a big farce. They know when each other is using it, they just push to defend. It's rather pointless.

Years ago, the TransAm series inverted the top 6 cars at the front. That was interesting, but then there was gamesmanship in qualifying. (I miss this series).

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Thanks! Long live the scream of Cosworth up the main straight @ Elkhart Lake.

You're post and email got me to reminiscing with my Dad last night. Reminded us both of the good old days of watching CART at Watkins Glen in the '80's and F1 for my Dad in the '70's (I'm too young for the F1 days).



Got to agree with you Tim.

I can't stand how the "leadership" of some series are getting so concerned with passing. I could care less how many passes take place during a race. I am much more interested in good hard clean racing. If driver "B" can't make it past driver "A" but they fight for position for 20 laps that is awesome racing!

One thing I very much miss is the refueling in F1. I think that made for some great qualifying in Q3 and some interesting strategy for the race. Once they got rid of refueling then Q3 become more boring and during the race all but the back markers are all on the same strategy. Ugh.

I have nothing against inverting the order of the last qualifying session. Put a rule in place that the drivers have to keep their speed within 95% of their previous session's best lap time to avoid lots of sandbagging. That would at least make IRL a bit more interesting. And it could be done very quickly unlike the years were are going to have to wait for maybe, possibly, hopefully more than just the Honda engine and the new Dallara cars with maybe, possibly, hopefully (but probably not) different aero packages.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Thanks! Long live the scream of Cosworth up the main straight @ Elkhart Lake.

I'm working on another email about the emphasis of passing as important, when in actuality, racing is set up to have minimal passing. I'll float my thoughts out here. The entire qualifying process determines who is fast and who is slow. Then they line up fastest to slowest and race. Theorehtically, since they are lined up in order of speed, we should not expect much passing, much like F1. No one complained at the old dirt track years ago about the lack of passing. Often times you just couldn't get the guy in front of you. Why then, is so much emphasis put on passing in open wheel or even CRAPCAR? Racing isn't about passing, it's about getting your car to be as fast as possible for qualifying to get the best starting spot. The only thing that is bad is if there's an aero issue that hinders passing.

You can induce some passing with tyre/brake wear or fuel loads, but even that is contrived.

Push to pass. Why give the IRL guys 100 extra hp to pass in 2012? We've seen the push to pass is a big farce. They know when each other is using it, they just push to defend. It's rather pointless.

Years ago, the TransAm series inverted the top 6 cars at the front. That was interesting, but then there was gamesmanship in qualifying. (I miss this series).

I see your point, but....

Fast qualifiers do not always equal fast race cars. I had a friend who did circle track racing, and he always set his car up to change the least over a run and that would usually give him a mid pack start, but a front end finish. And with most modern race cars, running in clean air is a lot different than traffic. If your car is good in traffic, you may be able to pass in the race even with poor qualifying.

And then you have drivers like Rick Mears and Jeff Gordon- who were both able to take a good car, have it go bad on them, and then figure out how to adjust mid-race to make them competitive. Remember the year Rick went two laps down, and still won the race?

Especially in the longer races, race set up is incredibly important vs. qualifying. The problem currently- especially for the 500- recent track changes reduce the decent racing line to single file. It's going to be a while until they find car or modify the track so that you can safey RACE two wide through 1 and 3.

The push to pass- yea, that's contrived for me. It's funny to hear F1 talk about it, too.

What I don't like about f1 is when the car behind is clearly faster- for whatever reason, and just can't pass. You can't possibly abuse your brakes much anymore (although, that seems to be changing this year), and aero push means you can draft in the corner before the straights. Make the front wings a WHOLE lot smaller, so that any loss due to aero push isn't a big deal, and we are onto something.

Anyway, I very much apprecite drivers and teams who can adjust the car during the race to make it faster. They should be able to pass when the opposite happens to the cars in front of them.

Honestly, if its all about qualifying- why even race? Save a lot of resources to have a series of 10 min time trials...

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

One thing I very much miss is the refueling in F1. I think that made for some great qualifying in Q3 and some interesting strategy for the race. Once they got rid of refueling then Q3 become more boring and during the race all but the back markers are all on the same strategy. Ugh.

What's funny is that I've been watching F1 long enough to be glad to be like the 80's. the racing is much better, since the cars are changing a lot during the race. And that's a perfect example of what I was talking about. A fast car on a light load may not be fast on a full load OR a mid load. Set up becomes a whole lot more difficult when the car changes by 200-300lb during the race. I think it's much better.

BTW- I also think that a lot of people are looking at CART through rose colored glasses. It was really, really good, yes. But outside of the rules IndyCar as it stands is very much like a few of the years- where it was mainly March Cosworth, they ran on a variety of course, and the big teams won. I know we like to think CART ran so many permanent courses, but they only did 4- Mid Ohio, Road America, Laguna, and Portland. And now they also run 4- Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen (with its own history), Laguna, and Barber. There were some great years, for sure. But outside of the odd rules as written, many of the years were not that different than today.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

What's funny is that I've been watching F1 long enough to be glad to be like the 80's. the racing is much better, since the cars are changing a lot during the race. And that's a perfect example of what I was talking about. A fast car on a light load may not be fast on a full load OR a mid load. Set up becomes a whole lot more difficult when the car changes by 200-300lb during the race. I think it's much better.

I see what you are saying but I don't think the racing is any better with the changing fuel loads. RB, McLaren, and Ferrari are still the fastest throughout the race. It doesn't seem to matter if it's at the beginning or the end. Maybe for the mid pack (Mercedes, Renault, Force India) teams is makes a little bit of a difference but not much.

BTW- I also think that a lot of people are looking at CART through rose colored glasses. It was really, really good, yes. But outside of the rules IndyCar as it stands is very much like a few of the years- where it was mainly March Cosworth, they ran on a variety of course, and the big teams won. I know we like to think CART ran so many permanent courses, but they only did 4- Mid Ohio, Road America, Laguna, and Portland. And now they also run 4- Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen (with its own history), Laguna, and Barber. There were some great years, for sure. But outside of the odd rules as written, many of the years were not that different than today.

Maybe so. But I still think it was better than watching 20 Dallara/Honda/Firestone cars circle the track. It's the idea or the possibility that there is competition between cars/engines/tires than the actual competition. Look at CRAPCAR, there is no real difference between cars and engines but yet that is one of the things they push in their PR.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

the idea of having a ton of passing during a race, especially at the front and hopefully/especially toward the end of the race is a bit odd and mystifying when you consider the history of all 3 major racing series, F1, IRL, Taxicar are full of just the opposite.

I remember years when Bill Elliott would run away with races and win by **** near one lap. This coinicided with rules that allowed engineers to be well, ingenuitive. Bill Elliot's engine building brother Ernie was the brains behind the #9 car all those years. I think Elliott's dominance helped put an end to that era (I remember a Michigan race he was down 2 laps/4miles, made that up and won going away) and brought about the new era of rules changes that hope to encourage a scenario where all 43 cars cross the finish line simultaneously.

Prior to that, in the the so-called "golden era" of taxicabs, the races were uncompetitive except the 1/2 dozen per year where R. Petty and C. Yarborough, or D. Pearson would have somewhat equal cars. That happened less frequently than people'd like to remember.

IRL and F1. nuff said. In the 80's both had their moments where on-track passing was intense and frequent but more often than not, one car, or sometimes two, ran away with the race and 3rd-4th place were at least 1 lap down.

Having said that, I've gotten used to the idea of passing and now I crave it. If it doesn't happen I don't freak out, but I DO get bored.

afterall it is called RAC(E)ing. In order to have competitive racing you need somewhat equal fields. Though this kills engineering for the most part it's much more fun to watch Texas IRL or Chicagoland IRL than it was to watch the Indy 500 most years prior to the IRL for me. when someone would just walk away with it.

.02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI6Na58Wi-o

ps - I can't wait for IRL to introduce those turbocharged engines and really have that high pitched whine I remember from 1995 and prior!

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

BTW- I also think that a lot of people are looking at CART through rose colored glasses. It was really, really good, yes. But outside of the rules IndyCar as it stands is very much like a few of the years- where it was mainly March Cosworth, they ran on a variety of course, and the big teams won.

The more I got to thinking about this the more I think you are wrong. There were lots of other engine/chassis combo's back in the 80's and early 90's in CART. For a long time Offy's were a very good engine. Not to mention Buick, Chevy, Judd, and Ford also participated. Lola, Eagle, McLaren, Lightning, Wildcat's, plus other privateers all had chassis. Yeah, for a long time March/Cosworth were the best but it also changed over time and there was some competition back then. Now with IRL there is no competition. For me that is a big reason why Indy racing was way more interesting back then compared to today.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

The more I got to thinking about this the more I think you are wrong. There were lots of other engine/chassis combo's back in the 80's and early 90's in CART. For a long time Offy's were a very good engine. Not to mention Buick, Chevy, Judd, and Ford also participated. Lola, Eagle, McLaren, Lightning, Wildcat's, plus other privateers all had chassis. Yeah, for a long time March/Cosworth were the best but it also changed over time and there was some competition back then. Now with IRL there is no competition. For me that is a big reason why Indy racing was way more interesting back then compared to today.

For the most part, the Eagle and McLaren didn't run CART- they were pre-cart, and I don't remember the last year of the Wildcats. Remember, CART started in 1981. The Offy wasn't much in CART, either.

When CART started, it was like now- the economy was in the dumps. So, for the most part, you get who could afford to build cars- which was March and Cosworth. As the economy got better, Chevy came in, and then Lola.

For Indy, there were always the oddball pushrod beast, since they allowed more boost with "stock block" rules.

So it's not *that* much different. It's not like I don't like CART, but when I look back at the history, what I precieve and what happened are different.

What's realy interesting is when people complain about the lack of road courses in IndyCar, proclaiming that CART ran more. That, for sure is wrong. Especailly the permanent courses- CART only ran 4/season, and the rest were ovals (normally 6-7) or temporary tracks (4-5). But permanent were always the same 4.

And then the drivers- while it was WAY, WAY cool to see Emmo and Mario and whatnot- they were very washed up F1 drivers. Emmo won his F1 championships in '72 and '74. But he was winning CART well into the '90's. And it's not as if Danny Sullivan or Eddie Cheever ever did anything significant in F1. Mario was the closest long term hero, and Mansell was interesting- although he struggled on Ovals, and Jac did great in F1. All in all, CART wasn't really that close to F1 WRT the drivers.

That's all- again, it's not that CART was bad- it was great. But what I'm saying is that IndyCar isn't that bad. Some of the rules are stupid, for sure, and it would be nice to see car choices. But IMHO, it is on the way back. If fans like Tim make their opinions clear, those dumb rules will eventually change.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I have been using CART as more of a generic term. I guess I should have used USAC and CART. I was talking more about early/mid 70's though the early 90's.

For the most part, the Eagle and McLaren didn't run CART- they were pre-cart, and I don't remember the last year of the Wildcats. Remember, CART started in 1981. The Offy wasn't much in CART, either.

McLaren and Eagles were both run in CART. McLaren for only about a year or so. Eagles were around until the mid-80's. Dan Gurney's team ran Eagles until 1985.

And Wildcats were around until the mid-80's. Patrick Racing ran them until at least 1984. I think the last one to run cart as a new chassis was the Wildcat X with Patrick Racing.

Plus Penske was making his own chassis. Hillin was too. There were also a few oddballs there.

Lola was competing by 1985. So that is only 3 years of mainly March.

When CART started, it was like now- the economy was in the dumps. So, for the most part, you get who could afford to build cars- which was March and Cosworth. As the economy got better, Chevy came in, and then Lola.

For Indy, there were always the oddball pushrod beast, since they allowed more boost with "stock block" rules.

Chevrolet was in CART right from the beginning. Just not as prolific as Cosworth. I think a few Buicks were run from an early time too. Although I am not as sure about that.

So it's not *that* much different. It's not like I don't like CART, but when I look back at the history, what I precieve and what happened are different.

For me it is a huge difference between some engine/chassis competition and no competition. Even if the March/Cosworth combo was the main one for a long time. At least there was something. Plus I like rooting for the underdog!

What's realy interesting is when people complain about the lack of road courses in IndyCar, proclaiming that CART ran more. That, for sure is wrong. Especailly the permanent courses- CART only ran 4/season, and the rest were ovals (normally 6-7) or temporary tracks (4-5). But permanent were always the same 4.

I don't have a problem with the mix of road/street/ovals in IRL. I like the mix and would like to see it kept pretty much the same. Although I am VERY upset that it looks like Watkins Glen is loosing it's race.

And then the drivers- while it was WAY, WAY cool to see Emmo and Mario and whatnot- they were very washed up F1 drivers. Emmo won his F1 championships in '72 and '74. But he was winning CART well into the '90's. And it's not as if Danny Sullivan or Eddie Cheever ever did anything significant in F1. Mario was the closest long term hero, and Mansell was interesting- although he struggled on Ovals, and Jac did great in F1. All in all, CART wasn't really that close to F1 WRT the drivers.

I agree here. IMO the best open wheel pavement drivers, and in the top teams (MClaren, Ferrari, etc) the best drivers in the world, were and still are in F1 hands down. So IRL/CART have second tier drivers doesn't bother me.

That's all- again, it's not that CART was bad- it was great. But what I'm saying is that IndyCar isn't that bad. Some of the rules are stupid, for sure, and it would be nice to see car choices. But IMHO, it is on the way back. If fans like Tim make their opinions clear, those dumb rules will eventually change.

IRL isn't quite horrible but it certainly lacks X factor. There is no real interesting side stories and the racing isn't that great. The rules are idiotic and TGBB needs to go ASAP! I am hoping that someone will compete with Honda and Dallara in 2012 but I am very pessimistic about it happening. Of the two maybe there will be another engine supplier. I seriously doubt anyone will make aero packages (maybe Penske). I just don't see much hope for the series and let's face it, it's on life support as it is. I guess it just comes down to if IRL can hold on long enough for Bernard to change things for the better.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Great discussion. I was watching the 1991 Milwaukee 200 @Indycar Garage a few weeks ago. There were at least 4 different chassis in that race and 3 engines. Really great racing, a decent amount of passing as fuel loads and conditions changed.

I guess before I push the detinate button, I need to see who else besides Honda steps up to the plate on the engine front. The big problem is the engine is a stressed part of the chassis, so they just can't take a hopped 400 hp Ford Ecobost engine and slap it onto the back of the car. I'm afraid the stressed part of the chassis choice will eliminate all sorts of potential engine suppliers. I wonder what the timetable for suppliers to step up to the plate is before it's too late to get into the game and develop a competitive package.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I guess before I push the detinate button, I need to see who else besides Honda steps up to the plate on the engine front. The big problem is the engine is a stressed part of the chassis, so they just can't take a hopped 400 hp Ford Ecobost engine and slap it onto the back of the car. I'm afraid the stressed part of the chassis choice will eliminate all sorts of potential engine suppliers. I wonder what the timetable for suppliers to step up to the plate is before it's too late to get into the game and develop a competitive package.

Honda has made it pretty clear that they are not interested in supplying the spec engine for IndyCar, so something is going to happen. I've not kept track of the engine timing, but so far only a few have blatently said they were not interested- namely Mercedes.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Not open wheel related- but I'm watching the ALMS documentary (the best I could call it) on CBS about last week's Mid-Ohio race.

I sent a note to webmaster@americanlemans.com politely telling them that this coverage isn't as good as watching the race "live" (either live, or actual re-broadcast).

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I know that it's only left turns and a bit on the muddy side of things, but I had a blast at the Knoxville Nationals this weekend... Say what you want about the big boys, but the smalltown variety of open wheel racing is alive and well here in the US... Over 100 cars in the pits, and they announced 23,500 people for the attendance and it seemed accurate... It's so cool to see a great crowd for something other than stock cars...

It's a unique experience... The track is right in the middle of town... It's just like Indy, just on a smaller scale... You park in someone's yard and walk through the neighborhood, checking out vendors/attractions in parking lots and front yards along the way... Everyone is there to party and have a great time, yet they are serious race fans... I would definately suggest checking it out if you have the chance... Not many other reasons to go to Iowa

Oh what could have been if they had just allowed the rear engine sprint car to be legal

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Not many other reasons to go to Iowa

Reason 1a to go to Iowa: Your wife falls in love with dog (I dislike dogs) in Iowa and makes you drive 10 hrs round trip on Memorial Day weekend to go pick it up.

Tony Cotman has been hired to run car, $$$ and rules side of the IICS. Among other things, maybe he will ditch the blocking rule. He seems to be the right guy for the job. Maybe there is hope.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Reason 1a to go to Iowa: Your wife falls in love with dog (I dislike dogs) in Iowa and makes you drive 10 hrs round trip on Memorial Day weekend to go pick it up.

Sorry to hear this. I don't like dogs either. Ah, the things we do to please the wife.

Tony Cotman has been hired to run car, $$$ and rules side of the IICS. Among other things, maybe he will ditch the blocking rule. He seems to be the right guy for the job. Maybe there is hope.

I am encouraged by this too. I am still pessimistic about Indy car in general and the new chassis/engine but maybe there is still hope.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I am encouraged by this too. I am still pessimistic about Indy car in general and the new chassis/engine but maybe there is still hope.

I think my pessimism just got raised some....

Texas Twin 275's

I didn't like this format years ago and it still stinks.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I think my pessimism just got raised some....

Texas Twin 275's

I didn't like this format years ago and it still stinks.

Well, nobody is forcing you to watch. For sure, I don't watch all of indycar races, which I didn't for CART either.

Join me in your garage to make your own race car instead of watching the race (and it *should* make it's debut this weekend at our autocross).

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I think my pessimism just got raised some....

Texas Twin 275's

I didn't like this format years ago and it still stinks.

I think this would be a great idea if it were like Michigan in the 70's and have the twin 250's or whatever they were. one race IRL, the other taxicars

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

Join me in your garage to make your own race car instead of watching the race (and it *should* make it's debut this weekend at our autocross).

Why would I do this? I much rather **** and moan about how poorly IRL is being run!

Seriously I can only afford one race car (drag). While I would love to run a road race car, I can't afford it and I am sure my wife would kill me if I even mentioned it.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2010...He's baaack...He's gone...

I think my pessimism just got raised some....

Texas Twin 275's

I didn't like this format years ago and it still stinks.

Underwelming......So what's so neat about seeing 2 short races in 1 night vs 1 long one? I could see some juice for it if it was full points for each race, but half points per race is a bummer. I just don't get it. How is this so special?

Plus the 1st race starts so late, 8pm cst. That sucks.

You want special? I'll give you special. Run a 275 mile oval and 200 mile roadcourse back to back, no changes to the car in between races. Full points each race. Now that would be fun.