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ObamaRama 8

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Re: ObamaRama 8

In a last-ditch attempt to learn just exactly how criminalizing American citizens who don't get health insurance is constitutional, let's hear how one of the experts explains it:

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Translation: My liberal constituents believe whatever I do is constitutional and that's all that matters to me. Now get out of my face before I constitutionally pull the plug on the First Amendment!

:rolleyes:
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

blockski said:
I'll take that bet. A fool and his money are soon parted...

Keep digging, gregg. Not only have I read the Constitution multiple times, I've even read the original copy. One of the perks of living here in DC.



Now let me say this - you can think and opine that this is unconstitutional all you want, but it would most certainly pass muster based on the current jurisprudence of the US Supreme Court.

If this is your standard for unconstitutional laws, then I think you'll be sorely disappointed to find out that a wide range of our laws are a) unconstitutional based on your criteria, and b) have explicitly passed Constitutional muster by the US Supreme Court.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Doesn't mean it has any relevance.
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And posting a picture of Tranquility Base is proof that I've teed off some golf balls on the moon too. :rolleyes:

Given your posts, there's no way you win the bet. Fork over the cash. :)

Yes, it is my standard that criminalizing American citizens for not purchasing insurance is unconstitutional. I admit it. What a archaic and unprogressive dinosaur I am, eh?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

unofan said:
I'd still like to know - do you really think 55% of the country even know what health care reform means?
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It doubtful people do know. And since the current health care reform is opposed by both readers of Free Republic and Democratic Underground, I imagine it's quite difficult for quite a few people to figure it out. It's not very likely people are taking the time to learn and understand what health care reform is...ohhh, football's on!
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

I'm just surprised the guy found 45% who supported it! Especially when his pollsters only call conservatives. :D Point is well made though. What % are opposed because of those nasty death panels that are supposed to be in the bill....


Greggy, another righty with anger issues. Yikes, what is it with you people. Funny how runaway govt wasn't a concern from 2001-2006....:eek: :rolleyes: :D

However, to answer your question the idea that people stop gaming the system but using a cheaper alternative (having insurance) than just hitting the ER every time they have a hangnail ought to make sense to all but the stupidest amongst us. I'll let you decide what category you belong in. Furthermore, the $$$ that was squeezed out of the pharma & hospital industries is real, so again not sure why saving money is bothering you so much.

Here's my thought though: conservatives are generally a bunch of do-nothings who would rather whine about problems than solve them. Like the crotchety old uncle at the family reunion who will offer a complaint about everything but who's own personal accomplishments are few and far between, you people tend to go through life opposing change, then quickly moving on to the next subject when proven wrong, which happens often. However, the rest of us aren't going to make apologies for not wanting to live in caves anymore like apparently you'd like society to go back to.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

blockski said:
When I see complaints like this, I can't help but think they're either ignorant of the way legislation is crafted in this country or purposefully obtuse about the process in order to try and kill the bill. When it comes from the Republicans, I know exactly which camp to put them in, but from common citizens I'm not sure.
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I am well educated on how it works (and I am not a Republican) so feel free to stop looking down upon me from your high horse. I know the point of incremental change and its value. But let me ask you a question, if it takes 12 moves to get where you want to go why take 15 to get there? They have already resigned themselves to making this partisan (the GOP dictated that) so why not just skip worthless step 1 (i.e. this bill) and go to the next step. Why compromise out everything that was actually good about the bill and half *** it? They didn't have to unless they mean to stall.

Back before I ignored Rover I remember him telling us all that this needed to be pushed through because the Dems will not have the power they have right now for very long so might as well use it while they have it. If I am to believe that, wouldn't it logically make more sense to try and put forth something that actually is a real step in the right direction? All this bill does is make it illegal to not have insurance and subsidize those who can't afford it. How is that any different...it wont lower premiums, it wont make health care better and honestly doesn't make it easier to get than it is for most people...but hey, it makes sure that those 30 million uninsured fork over more money to the insurance companies Obama and the Dems spent all year railing against!

I would rather they worked on a myriad of other problems...but that is just me.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

MinnFan said:
BTW Rover -
I will bet you $10,000 that 10 yrs from now not only will the bill fall short of the deficit reduction projections, but it will increase the deficit.
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Tell me you're kidding. How would we settle said bet? See, remember how Clinton passed that little deficit reduction bill in '93, and then remember how the deficit actually went down? Then remember how the knucks' were saying it was because of actions Reagan had taken 15 years earlier? :rolleyes: Somehow, I can see a similar situation unfolding here, even if I'm unfortunate enough to still be conversing with you 10 years hence.

PS - If you're going to fork over 10 G's, you'd better start saving up. I'm not sure how lucrative being unemployed and living with your mother is, but she must be giving you one h e ll of an allowance to be making these kinds of wagers. ;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Handyman said:
I am well educated on how it works (and I am not a Republican) so feel free to stop looking down upon me from your high horse. I know the point of incremental change and its value. But let me ask you a question, if it takes 12 moves to get where you want to go why take 15 to get there? They have already resigned themselves to making this partisan (the GOP dictated that) so why not just skip worthless step 1 (i.e. this bill) and go to the next step. Why compromise out everything that was actually good about the bill and half *** it? They didn't have to unless they mean to stall.
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Didn't mean to imply you were a Repub, just making a note of their obstructionism.

You pass this because this is as good of a bill as you are going to get in the Senate right now. End of story. The compromise has been within the Senate, not with the Republicans. The bipartisanship train left the station a long time ago. That's their loss, since they've been crying to kill the bill without really saying why or what they'd improve - but you can't blame them, as they have little to gain by passing it.

Back before I ignored Rover I remember him telling us all that this needed to be pushed through because the Dems will not have the power they have right now for very long so might as well use it while they have it. If I am to believe that, wouldn't it logically make more sense to try and put forth something that actually is a real step in the right direction? All this bill does is make it illegal to not have insurance and subsidize those who can't afford it. How is that any different...it wont lower premiums, it wont make health care better and honestly doesn't make it easier to get than it is for most people...but hey, it makes sure that those 30 million uninsured fork over more money to the insurance companies Obama and the Dems spent all year railing against!

I would rather they worked on a myriad of other problems...but that is just me.
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Again, I disagree with your analysis - I think it will offer marked improvements. The CBO thinks so, too. Most importantly, it develops a framework around which to build.

Bottom line is this - hold out for a better bill and you will get nothing.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

unofan said:
I'd still like to know - do you really think 55% of the country even know what health care reform means?

I'm finding out as I age that most Americans aren't just stupid, but they're willfully stupid. Actually, I knew that one back in high school, but it's still dismaying nonetheless.
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I whole-heartedly agree with you on this matter. Very troubling. :(

__________________

So here's the part of your post that explains why mandatory health care for all citizens and offering it to illegal aliens for a discount is the best way to "reduce" the deficit:


And here's the part of your post that actually answers how criminalizing American citizens for not obtaining health insurance is constitutional:


I must admit rover, you are unrivalled at parroting Nancy. ;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

unofan said:
I'm finding out as I age that most Americans aren't just stupid, but they're willfully stupid. Actually, I knew that one back in high school, but it's still dismaying nonetheless.
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Yeah...this past election solidified it for me. People are morons, and they revel in being morons and would rather be ruled by morons. No one wants to better themselves, they want to sit on their asses and have it all come to them. Society is 350 million people trying to get rich quick. They watch crap shows like Jersey Shore and The Hills because those are the type of people they want to be...rich, entitled and with an IQ of 12.

Man imagine how awesome our society will be in a generation when the current kids are old enough to be in control...
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

So.... weeding out the irrelevant comments that had nothing to do with what you were quoting me on in post #, your relevant comments to answering how a bill, as you labelled it, must include mandatory health insurance for all Americans to successfully reduce the deficit. Like Republicans, I'm not that bright - I just can't understand how mandatory health insurance is the key to your "deficit reduction" bill. :rolleyes:

Rover said:
....
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And your relevant comments about my opinion that criminalizing American citizens for not having health insurance is unconstitutional are:

Rover said:
....
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I gotta admit though Rover, you are unparalled at parroting Nancy. :rolleyes:

Rover said:
PS - If you're going to fork over 10 G's, you'd better start saving up. I'm not sure how lucrative being unemployed and living with your mother is, but she must be giving you one h e ll of an allowance to be making these kinds of wagers. ;)
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You need to fix your profile. You listed yourself as 37, rather than your real age of 17. Because I'm sure you have no maturity issues, right? :rolleyes:
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

Look Greggy, to your point about you not being that bright, I'm 100% in agreement. And who says I can't be bipartisan? :cool:

BUT, if a bill manages to get people to use cheaper options than the ER, and also cuts payments to pharma and hospitals, and makes insurers spend a certain % of their money on care, instead of admin/overhead, you've now forced more efficiency and cost savings into the system. Really, you can read all the assessments yourself to figure it out, as I have a feeling you're just trying to filibuster the thread.

Regarding insurance or fines, you also face penalties if you don't pay taxes. In your learned opinion, is that unconstitutional too? :rolleyes:
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
Look Greggy, to your point about you not being that bright, I'm 100% in agreement. And who says I can't be bipartisan? :cool:

BUT, if a bill manages to get people to use cheaper options than the ER, and also cuts payments to pharma and hospitals, and makes insurers spend a certain % of their money on care, instead of admin/overhead, you've now forced more efficiency and cost savings into the system. Really, you can read all the assessments yourself to figure it out, as I have a feeling you're just trying to filibuster the thread.

Regarding insurance or fines, you also face penalties if you don't pay taxes. In your learned opinion, is that unconstitutional too? :rolleyes:
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Oh boy lol. Why did I think that my maturity comment would have any impact on your lack thereof?

So you're comparing taxes to a mandatory purchase of a service? That's beyond brilliant, I think a new phrase needs to be coined for this - that's Rover-brilliant! (or RB for short, going forward) :rolleyes:

Until I get something from you otherwise, let it stand on record that you are dodging my questions. :)

Next issue. :)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

This is the worst of both worlds. We don't get any real savings other than vague promises from the health/insurance industry. And we just created 30million+ new paying customers for the insurance industry who are subsidized and this new demand will just create higher costs. Sure it might lower costs for few years but there is no way without competition (insurance is exempt from anti-trust laws) or price controls (utilities) and/or ethical behaviour by executives for us to have meaningful cost controls.

Just look at housing and more importantly the higher education market with subsidized customers creating demand. I'm still trying to figure out where all the money is going at the universities... at least health care have an excuse of costly new drugs and medical equipment. Hey we can extend someones life for 10months only cost $10k a month for the new drug.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
Look Greggy, to your point about you not being that bright, I'm 100% in agreement. And who says I can't be bipartisan? :cool:

BUT, if a bill manages to get people to use cheaper options than the ER, and also cuts payments to pharma and hospitals, and makes insurers spend a certain % of their money on care, instead of admin/overhead, you've now forced more efficiency and cost savings into the system. Really, you can read all the assessments yourself to figure it out, as I have a feeling you're just trying to filibuster the thread.

Regarding insurance or fines, you also face penalties if you don't pay taxes. In your learned opinion, is that unconstitutional too? :rolleyes:
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The whole health care bill deficit reduction is based on the Bammer elimanating $500 billion in Medicare waste/fraud/abuse. Of course, he said he was going to go through the national budget line-by-line and balance it, but we have seen where that has gotten us. And I would bet a lot of money that says after this bill is passed, there won't be a damned thing done about Medicare waste/fraud/abuse.

Face it Rover. Your boy Obama is a fraud. He is chock full of bullshiite.

Tundra said:
This is the worst of both worlds. We don't get any real savings other than vague promises from the health/insurance industry. And we just created 30million+ new paying customers for the insurance industry who are subsidized and this new demand will just create higher costs. Sure it might lower costs for few years but there is no way without competition (insurance is exempt from anti-trust laws) or price controls (utilities) and/or ethical behaviour by executives for us to have meaningful cost controls.

Just look at housing and more importantly the higher education market with subsidized customers creating demand. I'm still trying to figure out where all the money is going at the universities... at least health care have an excuse of costly new drugs and medical equipment. Hey we can extend someones life for 10months only cost $10k a month for the new drug.
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You actually think that the alleged *30MM+* will be PAYING? No, it will be more like 4MM. The rest will be paid for by taxpayer money. And by eliminating the restriction on what states insurance companies can operate, you would have the competition you desire. Lower costs? Tort reform. There you go.

And the money at universities--especially the state schools--is going to the union workers......didn't you know that AFSCME and their ilk see taxpayers as a bottomless wallet?
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

SPIN CONTROL said:
Actually 55% oppose it.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub.../healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

Now go have another drink, lush.
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those who oppose it think it'll bring death panels.
those who support it think they'll get hc for free.

unfortunately (or fortunately :p ) they are both wrong.

if they wanted to cover everyone and control cost they needed to have single payer for everyone. leaving all these middlemen in it allows too much money to go away from patient service.

but nobody asked me
(and yes, Bullworth is my all time favorite movie :p )
 
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