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ObamaRama 8

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Re: ObamaRama 8

As a medical professional, one would think you'd be aware that it takes several years of testing before you declare a trend....:eek:

. I'll take my personal experience over a survey.

It doesn't matter what you guys provide for links, Rover will pull something out of his butt to refute it. Its quite entertaining that folks continue to post links thinking he is going to take it seriously:p
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

It doesn't matter what you guys provide for links, Rover will pull something out of his butt to refute it. Its quite entertaining that folks continue to post links thinking he is going to take it seriously:p

Soooo....I'm supposed to let it go that MinnFan's own link disputes his post? Like you'd let anybody get away with that...:D

Busterman's point is something I've repeatedly said is a legitimate issue - the amount of pressure on providers with more people in the system. The effect on this particular issue however (ER visits) can't be judged with 1 year's worth of data (essentually 2007, as the article states they don't have finalized 2008 info in yet, and even if they did, 2 years isn't enough time).

Sorry if my brilliant anaylsis is too much for you to handle, but one would think you'd be used to that by now. ;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Not enough data. Law's effect first felt in 2007. Too soon to tell any trends. As a medical professional, one would think you'd be aware that it takes several years of testing before you declare a trend....:eek:

ER visits will only decrease because of increased access to primary care. Having insurance and being able to afford that care is only one part of the picture. Without access to that primary care provider, the patient must seek that care elsewhere such as an ER. One could conceivably argue that with that new found insurance and no regular Dr., it's actually easier to go to the ER for those patients. Mass. currently has one of highest ratio of Drs/patients in the nation so availability of that primary care is also very high. Despite the greater insurance coverage, greater income, and more physicians than most of the country, ER visits have increased in Mass. (as has overall costs). The, albeit preliminary, data from the Mass. initiative suggests that it has not gone as well as expected. This in a state, that I'm sure we would both agree is in much better fiscal shape than most. Why then, is it wise to promote a similar program on the remainder of the country and not obtain more data/trends from the Mass. program to see if it truly works? One doesn't have to be a medical professional to realize that it would be unwise to ignore even preliminary data that strongly suggests ones current hypothesis is wrong, merely a congressman.

So we agree on one thing. More data is needed. As of now however, the only data available strongly suggests that the claim you made (that savings will occur due to decreased ER visits) is BS.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

The ever conservative Rolling Stone Magazine ripped Obama apart for his economic policies and decisions since being elected. Maybe he and his staff should take a step back and realize that if major supporters like RS are attacking him and his policies (they backed him in the primaries and the general election so they should be biased TOWARDS him) that maybe he needs to wake the $##$% up!

I was going to post a link but it isnt on their site yet that I could find. It is in the newest issue though so I would guess it will be up in the next few days.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

The, albeit preliminary, data from the Mass. initiative suggests that it has not gone as well as expected. This in a state, that I'm sure we would both agree is in much better fiscal shape than most. Why then, is it wise to promote a similar program on the remainder of the country and not obtain more data/trends from the Mass. program to see if it truly works? One doesn't have to be a medical professional to realize that it would be unwise to ignore even preliminary data that strongly suggests ones current hypothesis is wrong, merely a congressman.

So we agree on one thing. More data is needed. As of now however, the only data available strongly suggests that the claim you made (that savings will occur due to decreased ER visits) is BS.

Very good points and again illustrates for me why the Dems are in far too much of a hurry to get this legislation passed.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Too bad if young healthy people can no longer risk getting injured and then passing along the bill to the rest of us. I had insurance out of college on my meager salary and never passed the bill along to the taxpayers. I have no sympathy for them, unless they're low income (and the bill addresses this BTW). To your second point, while its legitimate that pressure will be applied on providers in one area, it'll be lessened in another (ER visits). The problem for you is, this is not a reason to deny people health insurance. The system will be forced to be more efficient to handle them.
Under the current system, medical bills for the uninsured don't get passed on to taxpayers, either - they get passed on to users of medical services in the form of higher prices. Much like if you pay your own way through a private college, you're subsidizing your poorer classmates who are getting grants and/or subsidized loans from the school.

I'm fairly certain that the US government has NEVER denied anyone health insurance - that would be up to private companies. If people can't pay for it, why should they get it for free? What reason does the government have to deny me that Ferrari 360 Modena I've always wanted?

Rover said:
If I read this correctly, and please tell me if this is your interpretation too, this guy is saying that any premiums the newly insured have to pay should add to the cost of the bill? That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read in this debate, even dumber than death panels.
Well, next to your touting the fact that a study says that insurance premiums for individuals currently buying insurance will go down, and therefore there is a net savings for the country. If existing users' bills go down a little but millions of new people are now also paying into the system, it's quite likely that the net cost of health care per person will go UP, not down. Not to mention any money kicked in by the government. I still haven't seen anything that shows how the total % of GDP spent on healthcare (from all sources, private and public) will go down based on this "reform."

Any time someone touts that the costs will go down for segment X or group Y of the population, my suspicions immediately rise that they're playing some sort of shell game. X and Y's costs go down, but what happens to A, B, and C? What's the net difference in spending by the entire country?
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

Any time someone touts that the costs will go down for segment X or group Y of the population, my suspicions immediately rise that they're playing some sort of shell game. X and Y's costs go down, but what happens to A, B, and C? What's the net difference in spending by the entire country?

Thats where you get something like this from the CBO. One thing to note is that in many cases the only thing keeping premiums from skyrocketing is a gov't subsidy. This should prove that the gov't can't bend the cost curve down. If anything, it turns it further up.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

ER visits will only decrease because of increased access to primary care. Having insurance and being able to afford that care is only one part of the picture. Without access to that primary care provider, the patient must seek that care elsewhere such as an ER. One could conceivably argue that with that new found insurance and no regular Dr., it's actually easier to go to the ER for those patients. Mass. currently has one of highest ratio of Drs/patients in the nation so availability of that primary care is also very high. Despite the greater insurance coverage, greater income, and more physicians than most of the country, ER visits have increased in Mass. (as has overall costs). The, albeit preliminary, data from the Mass. initiative suggests that it has not gone as well as expected. This in a state, that I'm sure we would both agree is in much better fiscal shape than most. Why then, is it wise to promote a similar program on the remainder of the country and not obtain more data/trends from the Mass. program to see if it truly works? One doesn't have to be a medical professional to realize that it would be unwise to ignore even preliminary data that strongly suggests ones current hypothesis is wrong, merely a congressman.

So we agree on one thing. More data is needed. As of now however, the only data available strongly suggests that the claim you made (that savings will occur due to decreased ER visits) is BS.

All reasonable points, however I'll counter your main question, which seems to be why do this now, with an answer rooted in politics. Simply put, there is no way you'll ever get this close for another generation, at which time the system will most likely be worse.

In an ideal world, you'd be able to wait, and take your time, and address the issue in a few years time if you made the decision to see how Mass played out. The problem is, whether you agree with this is the right thing to do or not, one political party has decided that its more advantageous for them to see this effort fail, regardless of its merits, because that will benefit them more politically in the short term. With that in mind, the only way then to move legislation is with a 60 vote majority in the Senate, something that's happened for the first time in 30 years.

Futhermore, if the current minority party becomes the majority, or attains the Presidency, given their track record over the last 30 years, there's little indication that health care reform will be anywhere on their radar screen. More likely, as they would have attained their majority status fighting to defeat health care reform, absolutely nothing will be done. Hence the impetus to get this done now.

What your describing reminds me of work in some ways. If you've ever dealt with an accounting team, those people will not rest until every last penny is accounted for, even if its a billion dollar organization. Deadlines mean nothing to them. Finance people on the other hand understand that you have to go with the best info you have at the time. If you're good most of the time you're right, but once in awhile you're wrong. It would be nice if you had time to account for every last cent, but in the real world it doesn't work that way. Similarly, in health care reform, it would be nice to do a multi year effort on this, and please everybody. Unfortunately, that's not the reality of this country's current political climate, and won't be for anytime from now to the distant future. The time to act is now.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Unfortunately, that's not the reality of this country's current political climate, and won't be for anytime from now to the distant future. The time to act is now.
My, my. How things change in a few short months. Not so long ago, you were assuring us that the GOP wouldn't able to elect so much as a dogcatcher for the foreseeable future. Now looming GOP gains are the reason that the time to act is now! :D
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

For the newly covered people who don't have health problems, you're forcing them to subsidize everyone else's care. For the newly covered people who do have health problems or voluntarily become significant users of health care now that they have access, then you're adding to the demand for a service that is already relatively scarce (in the economic sense). Which of these is a good thing?

The former. So long as society isn't willing to let people die because they took the risk of not having insurance, you might as well force them to carry insurance.

There are ads running here in Nebraska trying to get our DINO Senator to vote no. It's hilariously contradictory. One sentence, they're saying that government should stay out of health care. The next, they're complaining about medicare cuts and how grandma will die. How can you say you want gov't out of health care while arguing to keep medicare?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

My, my. How things change in a few short months. Not so long ago, you were assuring us that the GOP wouldn't able to elect so much as a dogcatcher for the foreseeable future. Now looming GOP gains are the reason that the time to act is now! :D

A bit of a tangant, but I'll address it. :D

This has nothing to do with "looming GOP" gains. Fact is if the GOP gains one Senate seat, hardly a whopping margin, health care reform gets that much harder to pass since they've made the political decision to oppose everything and anything.

If you want my take on the GOP's chances next year, their chances aren't good. They have to campaign on something, and they're not even sure what this is. What I find funny is that the GOP is counting on Teabagger anger to vault them to victory, but in actual races they're counting on moderates to win the elections. In reality, a lot of these so-called "perfect fits" are going to be primaried out by hard righties who want to use a Congressional majority to investigate Obama's "real" birthplace. :eek: For example, look what's happening to Crist in Florida.

Edit: More good news regarding premiums from the CBO...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...11/30/AR2009113004391.html?wprss=rss_politics
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

If you want my take on the GOP's chances next year, their chances aren't good. They have to campaign on something, and they're not even sure what this is. What I find funny is that the GOP is counting on Teabagger anger to vault them to victory, but in actual races they're counting on moderates to win the elections. In reality, a lot of these so-called "perfect fits" are going to be primaried out by hard righties who want to use a Congressional majority to investigate Obama's "real" birthplace. :eek: For example, look what's happening to Crist in Florida.

This might put a damper on your analysis. From the Daily Kos no less. It might not matter if they ditch the moderates.

"In the 2010 Congressional elections will you definitely vote, probably vote, not likely vote, or definitely will not vote?"

Among self-identified Republican voters, 81% are either definitely voting next year or "probably" voting, while 14% are not likely to vote or will definitely not vote.

Among self-identified Independent voters, 65% are either "definitely" voting next year or probably voting, while 23% are not likely to vote or will definitely not vote.

Now for the self-identified Democrat voters: 56% say that they are definitely or probably voting. A startling 40% said they are not likely or definitely will not vote.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

A bit of a tangant, but I'll address it. :D
Yeah - back to the origin of the thread - politics. ;)

"the measure would leave premiums unchanged or slightly lower for the vast majority of Americans"

"the package, which would spend $848 billion over the next decade to extend coverage to more than 30 million additional people."

So let's see if I have the math right. Existing premiums (basically unchanged) + $848B from the federal government somehow equals lower spending on healthcare. Do I have that right?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

This might put a damper on your analysis. From the Daily Kos no less. It might not matter if they ditch the moderates.

"In the 2010 Congressional elections will you definitely vote, probably vote, not likely vote, or definitely will not vote?"

Among self-identified Republican voters, 81% are either definitely voting next year or "probably" voting, while 14% are not likely to vote or will definitely not vote.

Among self-identified Independent voters, 65% are either "definitely" voting next year or probably voting, while 23% are not likely to vote or will definitely not vote.

Now for the self-identified Democrat voters: 56% say that they are definitely or probably voting. A startling 40% said they are not likely or definitely will not vote.


You're trying to predict the electorate in Nov 2010 looking at it from Dec 2009? Good luck with that. ;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

"the measure would leave premiums unchanged or slightly lower for the vast majority of Americans"

"the package, which would spend $848 billion over the next decade to extend coverage to more than 30 million additional people."

So let's see if I have the math right. Existing premiums (basically unchanged) + $848B from the federal government somehow equals lower spending on healthcare. Do I have that right?

Indeed you do. Lower premiums for most people, coupled with 100Bn deficit reduction in 1st 10 years plus 650Bn in next 10 years, all for an amount of money that's fully paid for - therefore no borrowing money to fund it. What's not to like? :confused:
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Indeed you do. Lower premiums for most people, coupled with 100Bn deficit reduction in 1st 10 years plus 650Bn in next 10 years, all for an amount of money that's fully paid for - therefore no borrowing money to fund it. What's not to like? :confused:

The fact that, as a country, we'd be spending MORE on healthcare than before, not less.
 
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