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ObamaRama 8

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Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
Independent anaylsis from MIT. Looks like they back up and even go beyond CBO cost savings estimates.

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM145_final_try.html
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When I read "the CBO cost savings estimates," I thought you'd be referring to the net +/- for the US Treasury, not whether the premiums individuals would pay for health insurance would go up or down. If a plan knocked $1k off the average insurance premium but added $2k per person to the national debt, that's not a good deal.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

LynahFan said:
If a plan knocked $1k off the average insurance premium but added $2k per person to the national debt, that's not a good deal.
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That's referred to as "buying votes". It is commonly associated with government programs, such as welfare, Medicare, Social Security, etc.;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Plante26 said:
Not unlike the majority of the stimulus funds being unleashed several years down the road.....it'll be a campaign full of "if you re-elect me, you'll get your money".

And for some reason I think that the majority of American people will probably fall for it.
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the plan for the election will be "you wouldn't get all these good things from the republicans"... that is if they are able to avoid the double dip recession. There's still enough people out there who thinks money comes from the money fairy.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

LynahFan said:
When I read "the CBO cost savings estimates," I thought you'd be referring to the net +/- for the US Treasury, not whether the premiums individuals would pay for health insurance would go up or down. If a plan knocked $1k off the average insurance premium but added $2k per person to the national debt, that's not a good deal.
Click to expand...

Seems like this builds upon the CBO estimates. CBO estimates have Dem health care reform saving approx 100+Bn in 1st 10 years, 650Bn next 10 years. This adds on to that savings on people's premiums.

So, to sum up, deficit reduction and lower premiums. What's not to like (unless you're an insurance company exec maybe ;)?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
Seems like this builds upon the CBO estimates. CBO estimates have Dem health care reform saving approx 100+Bn in 1st 10 years, 650Bn next 10 years. This adds on to that savings on people's premiums.

So, to sum up, deficit reduction and lower premiums. What's not to like (unless you're an insurance company exec maybe ;)?
Click to expand...

There was so much savings they had to shift $250B into another bill so that it wouldn't add to the defecit.:rolleyes:
If its so easy for the gov't to save all this money, why haven't they been doing it all along?

Chart showing true 10yr cost

There is another $1.5 Trillion in costs that the CBO does not take into consideration.

As far as lowering premiums. Take a look at the states with the highest premiums (New York, New Jersey, Mass.). What do they have in common? Guaranteed Issue. That alone will adds thousands to everyone's premiums.
Increases in Premiums
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Thought this was interesting...

Since 1900 the average time spent in the private sector by Cabinet Members is right around 50%. In the Obama Administration the total is 8%.

Its no wonder they think the gov't should be the solution to everything.

Chart
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

MinnFan said:
Thought this was interesting...

Since 1900 the average time spent in the private sector by Cabinet Members is right around 50%. In the Obama Administration the total is 8%.

Its no wonder they think the gov't should be the solution to everything.

Chart
Click to expand...

I'll bet special interest groups are bummed.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
Seems like this builds upon the CBO estimates. CBO estimates have Dem health care reform saving approx 100+Bn in 1st 10 years, 650Bn next 10 years. This adds on to that savings on people's premiums.

So, to sum up, deficit reduction and lower premiums. What's not to like (unless you're an insurance company exec maybe ;)?
Click to expand...
Uh-huh. Right. Something for nothing. Where do I sign up?

For the newly covered people who don't have health problems, you're forcing them to subsidize everyone else's care. For the newly covered people who do have health problems or voluntarily become significant users of health care now that they have access, then you're adding to the demand for a service that is already relatively scarce (in the economic sense). Which of these is a good thing? Which will drive waste out of the system and increase the quality of care?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

I listened to this on the drive to work. I found myself nodding in agreement with this guy. None of the plans currently in the works really address the cost issue, and this guy touches the "third rail" aka rationing of healthcare. Bonus: He was also an ER physician before he got into politics.

Kitzhaber says the White House and Capitol Hill are too focused on access to health care. As a huge generation of baby boomers starts signing up for Medicare, he says policymakers should spend more time on costs.
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She received a letter from the Oregon Health Plan denying her cancer treatment because it had less than a 5 percent chance of success. The same letter offered payment for the state's physician-assisted suicide program. The drugmaker eventually gave Wagner the medication for free, but she died a few months later.
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What seems to be missing today in the debate that's taking place, particularly in Washington, D.C., is a concept and a conversation with the public about what they're willing to do without," Davidson says.
Click to expand...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120787076
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

LynahFan said:
Uh-huh. Right. Something for nothing. Where do I sign up?

For the newly covered people who don't have health problems, you're forcing them to subsidize everyone else's care. For the newly covered people who do have health problems or voluntarily become significant users of health care now that they have access, then you're adding to the demand for a service that is already relatively scarce (in the economic sense). Which of these is a good thing? Which will drive waste out of the system and increase the quality of care?
Click to expand...

Too bad if young healthy people can no longer risk getting injured and then passing along the bill to the rest of us. I had insurance out of college on my meager salary and never passed the bill along to the taxpayers. I have no sympathy for them, unless they're low income (and the bill addresses this BTW). To your second point, while its legitimate that pressure will be applied on providers in one area, it'll be lessened in another (ER visits). The problem for you is, this is not a reason to deny people health insurance. The system will be forced to be more efficient to handle them.

MinnFan said:
There was so much savings they had to shift $250B into another bill so that it wouldn't add to the defecit.:rolleyes:
If its so easy for the gov't to save all this money, why haven't they been doing it all along?
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A doctor fix is a separate bill that should be paid for separately. Not sure what the problem with that is. As far as why this hasn't happened previously, I'd say its a function of a lack of political will, plus an indifference to the problem by the party that had held the Presidency for 20 out of 28 years from 1981-2009.

MinnFan said:
Chart showing true 10yr cost

There is another $1.5 Trillion in costs that the CBO does not take into consideration.
Click to expand...

If I read this correctly, and please tell me if this is your interpretation too, this guy is saying that any premiums the newly insured have to pay should add to the cost of the bill? That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read in this debate, even dumber than death panels. People paying premiums get something in return - insurance! As in, if they get sick, they'll pay less for that treatment than they would have if they weren't insured (and were actually paying themselves, not sticking the taxpayers with the bill). That's a benefit back to them, and I wonder if that made it into this 3rd grade analysis you posted. Lets just say if I had to choose between the Cato Institute and MIT on this issue, I'll side with MIT. :D

MinnFan said:
As far as lowering premiums. Take a look at the states with the highest premiums (New York, New Jersey, Mass.). What do they have in common? Guaranteed Issue. That alone will adds thousands to everyone's premiums.
Increases in Premiums
Click to expand...

What New York, New Jersey, and Mass have in common is high income states. Make more, and things tend to cost more. It works out in the end, as Mass is regularly at the top of the charts in disposable income per resident, while deep South conservative states are at the bottom.

BTW - Do you dispute the MIT analysis that Mass premiums have risen less than average????
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

MinnFan said:
Perhaps that explains why they have more than double the wait time to see a doctor as nearly every other state.
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What does that have to do with premiums rising less than in other places? As the very article you linked states, most likely the wait time is due to Mass having a higher % of its citizens insured than any other state in the nation. That's a trade off I'll take, as a citizen of the state we're discussing.

Sometimes its helpful for you to read the articles that you post in full, lest they refute the point you're trying to make in your post. ;)
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Rover said:
What does that have to do with premiums rising less than in other places? As the very article you linked states, most likely the wait time is due to Mass having a higher % of its citizens insured than any other state in the nation. That's a trade off I'll take, as a citizen of the state we're discussing.

Sometimes its helpful for you to read the articles that you post in full, lest they refute the point you're trying to make in your post. ;)
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What does premiums rising less have to do with the fact that they still cost more than the rest of the country?

Most people are able to make the logical mental leap that goes from gov't controled healthcare keeping premiums from going up to the resulting delay in treatment.

I'm glad your happy with your wait times. I'm glad you're happy that the majority has to suffer so that things are more "fair".

Personally, I view care delayed as care denied.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

MinnFan said:
1) What does premiums rising less have to do with the fact that they still cost more than the rest of the country?

2) Most people are able to make the logical mental leap that goes from gov't controled healthcare keeping premiums from going up to the resulting delay in treatment.

3) I'm glad your happy with your wait times. I'm glad you're happy that the majority has to suffer so that things are more "fair".

Personally, I view care delayed as care denied.
Click to expand...

1) Where people draw a high salary MinnFan, things cost more. Housing, food, etc. Health care. The trick is, how much are you left over with at the end of the day (disposable income)? In Mass, it is or is near the highest in the country. What has happened is premiums have moderated as the new health care law kicked in, a good sign for the rest of the country.

2) Most people don't jump from point to point so quickly after their other ones got completely obliterated. :D Again, as your own article sites, for Boston (not the state - again read your own article) more people are using the providers because they have insurance, hence more wait times. That's not a great thing, but better than having more people be uninsured, no? Following your logic, the state should kick a million people off of insurance in order to ease HMO wait times. That's stark raving stupid.

3) Can't argue with wait times from personal experience. This year I broke a bone in my elbow at night, and they saw me the next morning - on a Sunday. I'll take my personal experience over a survey.
 
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