collegehcky2
Vinegar Strokes
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
This speech is going to be awesome. ****crickets****
This speech is going to be awesome. ****crickets****
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
nice connection to one of SP better episode.
nice connection to one of SP better episode.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Ryan and Boehner looked bored.
EDIT: I take that back. Boehner looks mad.
EDIT 2: Now Obama's hammering them on the infrastructure. Boehner's licking his lips in anger.
EDIT 3: Obama's on a roll. This is fun.
EDIT 4: Obama's been reading this board. He's stolen SIMPLE MATH from me.
Ryan and Boehner looked bored.
EDIT: I take that back. Boehner looks mad.
EDIT 2: Now Obama's hammering them on the infrastructure. Boehner's licking his lips in anger.
EDIT 3: Obama's on a roll. This is fun.
EDIT 4: Obama's been reading this board. He's stolen SIMPLE MATH from me.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
As a political event, this was the best he's been in months. As a prescription for "getting people back to work," it was platitudinous nonsense. Mr. president, how 'bout getting your NLRB to take its foot off Boeing's neck so they can build that plant in S. Carolina? Oh yeah, a right to work state. Can't be having that, can we?
Meanwhile, union goonery on display in Washington state. Queston: why do these thugs think they're entitled to threaten and intimidate? Who gives them the ideological green light? Well, for now, it's the occupant of the WH among others.
http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html
As a political event, this was the best he's been in months. As a prescription for "getting people back to work," it was platitudinous nonsense. Mr. president, how 'bout getting your NLRB to take its foot off Boeing's neck so they can build that plant in S. Carolina? Oh yeah, a right to work state. Can't be having that, can we?
Meanwhile, union goonery on display in Washington state. Queston: why do these thugs think they're entitled to threaten and intimidate? Who gives them the ideological green light? Well, for now, it's the occupant of the WH among others.
http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The country does seem to be anti-stimulus on the demand side. How much stimulus was there? 1 Trillion I think. Let me ask a stupid economics question. The Bush Tax Cuts were both a supply side and a demand side stimulus of sorts, correct? I base that on the argument that's been made over and over again that if those tax cuts expired you would be taxing small businesses. So, that supply side stimulus has been in effect since 2001. Over 10 years.
Then, and this may be a reach but think about it. We had the 2008 crash. The 2008 crash pulled 8 trillion (that's the number I heard) out of the economy. Mostly from the middle class and it went where? Seems to me to the upper class. That seems to me to be an 8 trillion dollar supply side stimulus package. And the fact that corporations have record profits right now and are sitting on trillions of dollars seems to bear that out. Also, during the 2000's the demand side was pumped up artificially by the housing credit card and that's now gone. Was it the demand side while Bush was in office that kept the economy going? Seems to me that's what I see.
So, we all seem to believe that demand side stimulus won't work, doesn't work. But, there is no demand and likely isn't going to be any demand for a long time because it's going to take years, maybe decades, for the middle class to get that 8 trillion dollars back. Meanwhile the supply side has been over stimulated to the point where they're just sitting on money.
Interestingly enough I heard on right wing radio this morning that the demand side is over stimulated. I can't come up with the math to get there.
So, what's the solution. Or am I insane?
Probably the latter.
The country does seem to be anti-stimulus on the demand side. How much stimulus was there? 1 Trillion I think. Let me ask a stupid economics question. The Bush Tax Cuts were both a supply side and a demand side stimulus of sorts, correct? I base that on the argument that's been made over and over again that if those tax cuts expired you would be taxing small businesses. So, that supply side stimulus has been in effect since 2001. Over 10 years.
Then, and this may be a reach but think about it. We had the 2008 crash. The 2008 crash pulled 8 trillion (that's the number I heard) out of the economy. Mostly from the middle class and it went where? Seems to me to the upper class. That seems to me to be an 8 trillion dollar supply side stimulus package. And the fact that corporations have record profits right now and are sitting on trillions of dollars seems to bear that out. Also, during the 2000's the demand side was pumped up artificially by the housing credit card and that's now gone. Was it the demand side while Bush was in office that kept the economy going? Seems to me that's what I see.
So, we all seem to believe that demand side stimulus won't work, doesn't work. But, there is no demand and likely isn't going to be any demand for a long time because it's going to take years, maybe decades, for the middle class to get that 8 trillion dollars back. Meanwhile the supply side has been over stimulated to the point where they're just sitting on money.
Interestingly enough I heard on right wing radio this morning that the demand side is over stimulated. I can't come up with the math to get there.
So, what's the solution. Or am I insane?
Probably the latter.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The 2009 stimulus was $787 billion, but $288 billion of that consisted of (say it with me) - tax cuts! So the demand side was fed $499B, not $800B.
The 2009 stimulus was $787 billion, but $288 billion of that consisted of (say it with me) - tax cuts! So the demand side was fed $499B, not $800B.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
$8 trillion in wealth on paper, maybe. Not in income for GDP purposes.
Though it is an unwieldly concept, it is possible that that wealth simply vanished and was not transferred from the middle class to the rich, because it was only wealth on paper. The key to remember is that stock prices are based on the reported last trade and not any inherent underlying value.
Say you, me, and Kepler each throw in $10 into starting company X, and in return we each get one share of stock for company X. The nominal value of that stock should be $10. Kepler sells his share to Foxton for $20. On paper, the value of our shares has now doubled since the apparent value of our stock is now $20. Foxton then sells his share to walrus for $9. You and I have each lost wealth on paper now, all without having done anything. And that wealth didn't transfer from us to Warren Buffett or Rupert Murdoch, it simply vanished, just like the extra wealth was previously created out of thin air, because it never really existed except on paper.
That's a primary reason why the IRS doesn't tax unrealized gains and losses on an annual basis. Until you realize the gain (or loss), it's nothing but speculation.
$8 trillion in wealth on paper, maybe. Not in income for GDP purposes.
Though it is an unwieldly concept, it is possible that that wealth simply vanished and was not transferred from the middle class to the rich, because it was only wealth on paper. The key to remember is that stock prices are based on the reported last trade and not any inherent underlying value.
Say you, me, and Kepler each throw in $10 into starting company X, and in return we each get one share of stock for company X. The nominal value of that stock should be $10. Kepler sells his share to Foxton for $20. On paper, the value of our shares has now doubled since the apparent value of our stock is now $20. Foxton then sells his share to walrus for $9. You and I have each lost wealth on paper now, all without having done anything. And that wealth didn't transfer from us to Warren Buffett or Rupert Murdoch, it simply vanished, just like the extra wealth was previously created out of thin air, because it never really existed except on paper.
That's a primary reason why the IRS doesn't tax unrealized gains and losses on an annual basis. Until you realize the gain (or loss), it's nothing but speculation.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
As I noted, Republicans, and specifically the Bush administration, did a lot of the same. It seems to get worse with every new administration. I fully expect whoever wins in 2012 to be very short-sighted. But, we must ask ourselves whether this just reflects the American populace? To me it's hard to say no.I'd just point out this is exactly how I observe Republican behavior: cut taxes today and someday everything will be alright. The important thing is to ensure those tax cuts come up front to harvest the political contributions.
I guess we both just view our own thinking as "long term" and its opposite as "short term." Which makes sense, psychologically, since obviously we wouldn't believe what we believe if we thought it wasn't the best longterm strategy.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Is Obama for real? This type of stuff is just utter nonsense:
"The question is whether we can restore some of the fairness and the security that has defined this nation since our beginning."
How about being fair to future generations who will be forced to pay for your latest spend now, ask questions later boondoggle? What utter rubbish.
Is Obama for real? This type of stuff is just utter nonsense:
"The question is whether we can restore some of the fairness and the security that has defined this nation since our beginning."
How about being fair to future generations who will be forced to pay for your latest spend now, ask questions later boondoggle? What utter rubbish.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Not to mention a lot of that wealth was based on people/companies using money they didn't have to buy stocks at inflated prices. Basically, half of Wall Street was the Dukes from Trading Places and when margin call came they were all screwed!
The only wealth that was transferred (besides the bailouts and stimulus) was the people who made millions betting against the market. A lot of people on the inside got rich because they knew this was all an illusion and bet accordingly. Of course many of these people were keeping the info to themselves while many of the people investing with them were going down in flames...but that is another story.
None of it matters, as long as people are sitting on money and not spending nothing is going to fix this economy.
Not to mention a lot of that wealth was based on people/companies using money they didn't have to buy stocks at inflated prices. Basically, half of Wall Street was the Dukes from Trading Places and when margin call came they were all screwed!
The only wealth that was transferred (besides the bailouts and stimulus) was the people who made millions betting against the market. A lot of people on the inside got rich because they knew this was all an illusion and bet accordingly. Of course many of these people were keeping the info to themselves while many of the people investing with them were going down in flames...but that is another story.
None of it matters, as long as people are sitting on money and not spending nothing is going to fix this economy.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The middle class (on the housing credit card) drove GW Bush's economy in the 2000's. I think that's clear. All that money has either disappeared or been taken from the middle class. The left's solution was an inadequate stimulus with as Priceless points out barely any Keynesian elements relative to the actual scope of the problem. The right's now calling Keynesian economics a failure and saying the only way to stimulate the economy is more Reaganomics (trickle down) and sending most of the government workforce to the unemployment line.
So, what's the solution?
As for Bob's argument, I don't disagree. But I do find it funny that when times were good it was ok to keep charging but now that times are bad and we need the government to spend money to prop things up THEN and only THEN do we have a debt problem.
Funny world we live in.
The middle class (on the housing credit card) drove GW Bush's economy in the 2000's. I think that's clear. All that money has either disappeared or been taken from the middle class. The left's solution was an inadequate stimulus with as Priceless points out barely any Keynesian elements relative to the actual scope of the problem. The right's now calling Keynesian economics a failure and saying the only way to stimulate the economy is more Reaganomics (trickle down) and sending most of the government workforce to the unemployment line.
So, what's the solution?
As for Bob's argument, I don't disagree. But I do find it funny that when times were good it was ok to keep charging but now that times are bad and we need the government to spend money to prop things up THEN and only THEN do we have a debt problem.
Funny world we live in.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Actually this is a pretty decent middle of the road approach. It helps education, infrastructure, small biz and is not unfriendly to large business...with the ultimate emphasis to drive jobs. As said, all spending is to be balanced by cuts.
The private sector is not spending nor hiring. Every job cut in government is not being replaced by the private sector. Blanket GOP cuts often come from places like education without thought to what's getting cut. There has to be a happy medium...minor cuts until tax revenue gets going again.
Everyone knows jobs are the top priority...but its refreshing to hear a viewpoint of longer term education, innovation and infrastructure to make this country competitive, rather than just cut everything and somehow hope that creates jobs.
Actually this is a pretty decent middle of the road approach. It helps education, infrastructure, small biz and is not unfriendly to large business...with the ultimate emphasis to drive jobs. As said, all spending is to be balanced by cuts.
The private sector is not spending nor hiring. Every job cut in government is not being replaced by the private sector. Blanket GOP cuts often come from places like education without thought to what's getting cut. There has to be a happy medium...minor cuts until tax revenue gets going again.
Everyone knows jobs are the top priority...but its refreshing to hear a viewpoint of longer term education, innovation and infrastructure to make this country competitive, rather than just cut everything and somehow hope that creates jobs.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Only idiots (or insiders/hedge fund managers) buy individual stocks or try to time the market. The only defense we commoners have is to buy low cost index funds that capture the whole market and do so over a long period of time. To do otherwise is almost a certain guarantee of lower returns and a ****ty retirement account balance.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
...and an early death due to stress, heartburn, and high blood pressure.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The fact that you think this is middle of the road is all that needs to be said. Cut everything? We haven't begun to cut (with some tax increases thrown in) to get the budget anywhere near a sustainable trajectory. We're already spending, what, a trillion dollars a year at the federal level that we don't have? You need to gain a bit of perspective on what's really going on.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I agree. Cut and cut now. Start with Social Security, then Medicare, then Welfare. Once you have balanced everything then cut taxes. Problem solved.
I agree. Cut and cut now. Start with Social Security, then Medicare, then Welfare. Once you have balanced everything then cut taxes. Problem solved.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Wow, I inadvertently solved the social security and medicare funding problems!
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
You cold-hearted conservative you. Next thing you'll say is that we should consider future generations. The horror.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Are union dominated sectors of the economy the only ones that need "help?"
Are union dominated sectors of the economy the only ones that need "help?"
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