Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Santayana's was similar, but Churchill had a variation, which is what I chose to quote.
Santayana's was similar, but Churchill had a variation, which is what I chose to quote.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Sorry Bob, but with my school's NCAA hockey championship win from a couple of years ago I have held off doom for awhile longer. However you write nothing of learning from history. The essence of your point seems to be that Israel should not negotiate concessions with the Palestinians because of the refusal of a long dead leader a dozen years ago to strike a peace deal that may have been relevant then but time and circumstances have changed since. Why do I think you're one of these people who also thinks the decline in morality in this country started when suspenders and twead sportsjackets were no longer considered trendy?
Sorry Bob, but with my school's NCAA hockey championship win from a couple of years ago I have held off doom for awhile longer. However you write nothing of learning from history. The essence of your point seems to be that Israel should not negotiate concessions with the Palestinians because of the refusal of a long dead leader a dozen years ago to strike a peace deal that may have been relevant then but time and circumstances have changed since. Why do I think you're one of these people who also thinks the decline in morality in this country started when suspenders and twead sportsjackets were no longer considered trendy?
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Israel does face an existential threat, and they should deal with it as they want to. With Hezbollah and Hamas and Ahmadinejad using genocidal rhetoric, they have to take them seriously. I agree with you that some people are falsely equivalent in their rhetoric. But likewise some absolve Israel of any wrongdoing no matter how many Lebanese towns they plow under, and I am not tarring you with that brush.
Israel does face an existential threat, and they should deal with it as they want to. With Hezbollah and Hamas and Ahmadinejad using genocidal rhetoric, they have to take them seriously. I agree with you that some people are falsely equivalent in their rhetoric. But likewise some absolve Israel of any wrongdoing no matter how many Lebanese towns they plow under, and I am not tarring you with that brush.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I thought Churchill's quote was "a country that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it," and Santayana's was about history, which makes sense, since he was a philosopher of history.
I thought Churchill's quote was "a country that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it," and Santayana's was about history, which makes sense, since he was a philosopher of history.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The guys that clean the floor are usually contractors and not "real" employees at places like MS and Google.
The guys that clean the floor are usually contractors and not "real" employees at places like MS and Google.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
No, my point is Israel is rightly skeptical in negotiating with the Palestinians, for a number of reasons, including the history of Arafat and other Palestinians not negotiating in good faith. It's hard for the Palestinian leadership to continue whipping up hatred against Israel at every turn, then at some point try to start telling their people they should be willing to negotiate with Israel. That's a very though thing to pull off, and the Palestinian leadership hasn't (though it's not clear whether they really want to).
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
As well they should be. Personally I don't think anybody in the current leadership on either side can deliver. Only a Sharon or a Rabin could sell a peace deal to Isrealis. Netanyahu's govt would be brought down immediately. On the other side, its a divided entity. Abbas can't speak for all of the Palestinians so an agreement with him won't mean jack over in Gaza where he has no authority. That's why I say the US gives everybody one last change to get something done by a set deadline, say the end of the year, or this country completely walks away. While Israel would get less aid, they also could do what they thought they needed to without the US looking over their shoulder. Palestinians could launch another uprising but they'd be at the mercy of a better armed opponent if they chose to attack.
The whole paradigm has changed this year. It used to be widely thought that there would be no regional breakthrough until that conflict got settled. Now with dictators being overthrown left and right that notion is out the window. Hence my belief that they can settle it themselves.
As well they should be. Personally I don't think anybody in the current leadership on either side can deliver. Only a Sharon or a Rabin could sell a peace deal to Isrealis. Netanyahu's govt would be brought down immediately. On the other side, its a divided entity. Abbas can't speak for all of the Palestinians so an agreement with him won't mean jack over in Gaza where he has no authority. That's why I say the US gives everybody one last change to get something done by a set deadline, say the end of the year, or this country completely walks away. While Israel would get less aid, they also could do what they thought they needed to without the US looking over their shoulder. Palestinians could launch another uprising but they'd be at the mercy of a better armed opponent if they chose to attack.
The whole paradigm has changed this year. It used to be widely thought that there would be no regional breakthrough until that conflict got settled. Now with dictators being overthrown left and right that notion is out the window. Hence my belief that they can settle it themselves.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
When I attended the 2004 state Democratic Convention there was a huge debate on what our plank on Israel/Palestine would be. I turned to the group sitting near me and asked, "Do you really think the Israelis or Palestinians are waiting with bated breath to see what a bunch of relative nobody's in little old Maine thinks of their predicament?" Conversation went on for two freaking hours until someone suggested we no longer had a quorum. More than half the delegates decided they had something better to do (like watch paint dry) than listen to an Israel/Palestine debate.
When that deal was offered to Arafat and he rejected it a member of the press asked him why: "If I agreed to that I would be killed." Of course, in that part of the world you can be killed because you have the wrong invisible friend.
Neither side seems to give a **** if there is ever a peace deal made. So why should I give a ****?
When I attended the 2004 state Democratic Convention there was a huge debate on what our plank on Israel/Palestine would be. I turned to the group sitting near me and asked, "Do you really think the Israelis or Palestinians are waiting with bated breath to see what a bunch of relative nobody's in little old Maine thinks of their predicament?" Conversation went on for two freaking hours until someone suggested we no longer had a quorum. More than half the delegates decided they had something better to do (like watch paint dry) than listen to an Israel/Palestine debate.
When that deal was offered to Arafat and he rejected it a member of the press asked him why: "If I agreed to that I would be killed." Of course, in that part of the world you can be killed because you have the wrong invisible friend.
Neither side seems to give a **** if there is ever a peace deal made. So why should I give a ****?
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
We can debate the relative merits of Israeli and Palestinian negotiation, and surely we'll give Israel a symbolic victory. The bigger point is that these two are not going to solve the problem. Not now, not next year, not after the next presidential election.
This is one of those situations where an American president has to be ready to throw some weight around and exercise some benign hegemony. I don't know how likely that is, and I definitely don't know how likely it is in anyone's first term. :\
We can debate the relative merits of Israeli and Palestinian negotiation, and surely we'll give Israel a symbolic victory. The bigger point is that these two are not going to solve the problem. Not now, not next year, not after the next presidential election.
This is one of those situations where an American president has to be ready to throw some weight around and exercise some benign hegemony. I don't know how likely that is, and I definitely don't know how likely it is in anyone's first term. :\
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
"Never. Never never never ever ever ever. Never."
"Never. Never never never ever ever ever. Never."
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Except for the fact that the poor "Palestinian" people keeping ELECTING terrorists to lead them. There will be no "overthrow" of "Palestinian" leadership. The "Palestinians" have the leadership they want and deserve. I say again, screw 'em. Six decades later and the "Palestinians" are still living in refugee camps. Refugees from what? From whom? The Arab world has the power and resources to resolve the "Palestinian" problem. King Hussein tried and wound up kicking them out of Jordan ("Black September"). In large measure they don't want to solve the "Palestinian problem" because the "Palestinians" serve to divert attention from their own despotic regimes. Israel isn't perfect, over the years the Jewish state has caused me numerous cases of heartburn (the Liberty comes to mind as does Jonathon Pollard), but they have made numerous concessions to no avail. Arafat walked out when Israel offered about 95% of what he wanted. Yes, that terrorist pig is dead, but if he were still alive, wouldn't he still be General Secretary?
Jonah Goldberg made an interesting point today, this myth that somehow the US president can "solve" this problem if he only tries hard enough. You don't hear anyone saying that about Pakistan/India or North/South Korea or other flash points. Why? Because at the end of the day those expressing this "thought" are expecting a US president to sell out Israel. "The One" seems to be positioning himself to take a shot at it.
Except for the fact that the poor "Palestinian" people keeping ELECTING terrorists to lead them. There will be no "overthrow" of "Palestinian" leadership. The "Palestinians" have the leadership they want and deserve. I say again, screw 'em. Six decades later and the "Palestinians" are still living in refugee camps. Refugees from what? From whom? The Arab world has the power and resources to resolve the "Palestinian" problem. King Hussein tried and wound up kicking them out of Jordan ("Black September"). In large measure they don't want to solve the "Palestinian problem" because the "Palestinians" serve to divert attention from their own despotic regimes. Israel isn't perfect, over the years the Jewish state has caused me numerous cases of heartburn (the Liberty comes to mind as does Jonathon Pollard), but they have made numerous concessions to no avail. Arafat walked out when Israel offered about 95% of what he wanted. Yes, that terrorist pig is dead, but if he were still alive, wouldn't he still be General Secretary?
Jonah Goldberg made an interesting point today, this myth that somehow the US president can "solve" this problem if he only tries hard enough. You don't hear anyone saying that about Pakistan/India or North/South Korea or other flash points. Why? Because at the end of the day those expressing this "thought" are expecting a US president to sell out Israel. "The One" seems to be positioning himself to take a shot at it.
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Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
It isnt false equivalence, you just dont like what I said. You want to dredge up stuff from pre-Independence that is your choice (hey guess what all those patriots you celebrate are terrorists too...what is your point again?) but the fact is Israel has bent over backwards to try and fix the problems and the Palestinian representation has walked away every time. Then they get a bunch of true believers to martyr themselves (the average Palestinian is just a pawn) and any move Israel makes is then criticized to high heaven...especially from people left of center. That is why Israel went right post Yitzhak Rabin. (if you want feel free to contact my uncle he will tell you all about it)
This is not me defending Israel, I hate what they have become but I understand it. Look what we became because of 9/11 and they deal with this crap everyday. But lets not pretend that America doesnt have a double standard about this. We get attacked and we go to war, we invade sovereign nations and kill leaders/topple regimes...if Israel is attacked we tell them they best watch themselves because we dont want to **** off the Saudis and have oil prices skyrocket. whereas the Palestinians are the Arab World's pawn in International Relations Israel is America's pawn. If the Saudi Government threatened to cut us off we would turn our back on Israel so fast it would make your head spin. As it is the Saudis love having the Jew Infidels to rail against.
Now Kepler, show us all how smart you are by finding a bunch of articles and throwing around big latin words. That way I can tune out and you can still make yourself feel smart
It isnt false equivalence, you just dont like what I said. You want to dredge up stuff from pre-Independence that is your choice (hey guess what all those patriots you celebrate are terrorists too...what is your point again?) but the fact is Israel has bent over backwards to try and fix the problems and the Palestinian representation has walked away every time. Then they get a bunch of true believers to martyr themselves (the average Palestinian is just a pawn) and any move Israel makes is then criticized to high heaven...especially from people left of center. That is why Israel went right post Yitzhak Rabin. (if you want feel free to contact my uncle he will tell you all about it)
This is not me defending Israel, I hate what they have become but I understand it. Look what we became because of 9/11 and they deal with this crap everyday. But lets not pretend that America doesnt have a double standard about this. We get attacked and we go to war, we invade sovereign nations and kill leaders/topple regimes...if Israel is attacked we tell them they best watch themselves because we dont want to **** off the Saudis and have oil prices skyrocket. whereas the Palestinians are the Arab World's pawn in International Relations Israel is America's pawn. If the Saudi Government threatened to cut us off we would turn our back on Israel so fast it would make your head spin. As it is the Saudis love having the Jew Infidels to rail against.
Now Kepler, show us all how smart you are by finding a bunch of articles and throwing around big latin words. That way I can tune out and you can still make yourself feel smart
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bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The way to fix the Israel/Palestine problem is simple.
Create those force fields/shields they have in Stargate that reflect bullets/etc. back on their users.
Surround Israeli territory. Give the Palestinians that oh-so-tempting section of the Golan Heights where they can fire rockets down all over the place. When the rockets rebound and destroy the guys that shot them and everything around them, walk back in and colonize the empty territory.
This will probably continue until that occurs.
The way to fix the Israel/Palestine problem is simple.
Create those force fields/shields they have in Stargate that reflect bullets/etc. back on their users.
Surround Israeli territory. Give the Palestinians that oh-so-tempting section of the Golan Heights where they can fire rockets down all over the place. When the rockets rebound and destroy the guys that shot them and everything around them, walk back in and colonize the empty territory.
This will probably continue until that occurs.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Or maybe America could just bud the **** out. Let Israel and Palestine work it out (or not) themselves. America forcing crap upon these two nations is not helping matters. How about we fix our own problems then worry about everything else.
edit: or broncos plan
Or maybe America could just bud the **** out. Let Israel and Palestine work it out (or not) themselves. America forcing crap upon these two nations is not helping matters. How about we fix our own problems then worry about everything else.
edit: or broncos plan
bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Again, this is hardly new ground.
Frankly, this is more stupid and pointless than usual, considering that we can't really know who will be in charge of Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Syria, etc. six months from now.
It'd be ironic if the Palestinians and Israelis finally agreed on something only to have Egypt or Syria jump in under new unsteady regimes.
George W. Bush in 2002 said:
Again, this is hardly new ground.
Frankly, this is more stupid and pointless than usual, considering that we can't really know who will be in charge of Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Syria, etc. six months from now.
It'd be ironic if the Palestinians and Israelis finally agreed on something only to have Egypt or Syria jump in under new unsteady regimes.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Bush categorically rejected a return to the 1949 armistice lines in a 2004 letter to PM Sharon. What "The One" is proposing here is for Israel to give away the store as a pre-condition to the beginning of negotiations with a Hamas controlled entity. Hamas, you'll recall, has the destruction of Isreal written into its charter.
You evidently love that quote from Bush' 2002 speech, you've used it twice now. But you're quoting out of context and suggesting meaning which he didn't intend. To be fair, you should quote more completely. Just sayin'. For instance, on both occasions you left out these words, which preceded your quotes in the speech.
"I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. I call upon them to build a practicing democracy, based on tolerance and liberty. If the Palestinian people actively pursue these goals, America and the world will actively support their efforts. If the Palestinian people meet these goals, they will be able to reach agreement with Israel and Egypt and Jordan on security and other arrangements for independence."
"And when the Palestinian people have new leaders, new institutions and new security arrangements with their neighbors, the United States of America will support the creation of a Palestinian state whose borders and certain aspects of its sovereignty will be provisional until resolved as part of a final settlement in the Middle East."
Probably just an oversight.
Bush categorically rejected a return to the 1949 armistice lines in a 2004 letter to PM Sharon. What "The One" is proposing here is for Israel to give away the store as a pre-condition to the beginning of negotiations with a Hamas controlled entity. Hamas, you'll recall, has the destruction of Isreal written into its charter.
You evidently love that quote from Bush' 2002 speech, you've used it twice now. But you're quoting out of context and suggesting meaning which he didn't intend. To be fair, you should quote more completely. Just sayin'. For instance, on both occasions you left out these words, which preceded your quotes in the speech.
"I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. I call upon them to build a practicing democracy, based on tolerance and liberty. If the Palestinian people actively pursue these goals, America and the world will actively support their efforts. If the Palestinian people meet these goals, they will be able to reach agreement with Israel and Egypt and Jordan on security and other arrangements for independence."
"And when the Palestinian people have new leaders, new institutions and new security arrangements with their neighbors, the United States of America will support the creation of a Palestinian state whose borders and certain aspects of its sovereignty will be provisional until resolved as part of a final settlement in the Middle East."
Probably just an oversight.
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bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
He clearly called for a return to the 1967 lines since he discussed UN resolution 242, which is what Obama said the other day. Nowhere in either speech is the 1949 division brought up. I'm glad you put together a bunch of paragraphs arguing for something I didn't even say.
Edit: In fact, let me unquote you, since you're doing your usual misdirection that's gotten you on half a dozen ignore lists, and they don't need to see your derp because I haven't gotten sick of seeing it yet.
He clearly called for a return to the 1967 lines since he discussed UN resolution 242, which is what Obama said the other day. Nowhere in either speech is the 1949 division brought up. I'm glad you put together a bunch of paragraphs arguing for something I didn't even say.
Edit: In fact, let me unquote you, since you're doing your usual misdirection that's gotten you on half a dozen ignore lists, and they don't need to see your derp because I haven't gotten sick of seeing it yet.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
You quoted the passage twice. You were going for "irony" or something. Certainly "Bush did it first." Except you left out the part about the demands he was making before this restoration of borders could occur. That enhanced your moral equivalence argument. But didn't do much for your integrity. As to your snivling personal attack, you've shown on more than one occasion an unhealthy obsession with my posts. You and the girls can giggle under the covers all you want. You left out relevant information (twice) in your "quotes," which is not the standard. But you go ahead and make it up as you go along. "Must defend Obama."
As to putting me on "ignore," I regret that, of course. Especially since those who do it are denying themselves some pretty fundamental revealed truths. I also think there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. The only person on my list is 5MM. And I've specifically told him why. And I've periodically taken him off "ignore" to engage him and he's continued what seems to me his intellectually dishonest posting. Typical exchange between 5MM and Old Pio: OP--something profoundly brilliant. 5MM: did you know Nixon put Ketchup on cottage cheese? IMHO, there's just no basis to engage him. Now you and the rest of the ladies who've allegedly turned up your noses at my posts (do you have a newsletter?) evidently don't have the intellectual fortitude to engage me on my many failings. You're free to do that, of course, however I'd prefer you didn't. And ask yourselve this: would you ladies put me on "ignore" if I agreed with you?If the answer is "no," then you know what that makes you. If the answer is "yes," that makes you, uh, untruthful.
You quoted the passage twice. You were going for "irony" or something. Certainly "Bush did it first." Except you left out the part about the demands he was making before this restoration of borders could occur. That enhanced your moral equivalence argument. But didn't do much for your integrity. As to your snivling personal attack, you've shown on more than one occasion an unhealthy obsession with my posts. You and the girls can giggle under the covers all you want. You left out relevant information (twice) in your "quotes," which is not the standard. But you go ahead and make it up as you go along. "Must defend Obama."
As to putting me on "ignore," I regret that, of course. Especially since those who do it are denying themselves some pretty fundamental revealed truths.
I also think there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. The only person on my list is 5MM. And I've specifically told him why. And I've periodically taken him off "ignore" to engage him and he's continued what seems to me his intellectually dishonest posting. Typical exchange between 5MM and Old Pio: OP--something profoundly brilliant. 5MM: did you know Nixon put Ketchup on cottage cheese? IMHO, there's just no basis to engage him. Now you and the rest of the ladies who've allegedly turned up your noses at my posts (do you have a newsletter?) evidently don't have the intellectual fortitude to engage me on my many failings. You're free to do that, of course, however I'd prefer you didn't. And ask yourselve this: would you ladies put me on "ignore" if I agreed with you?If the answer is "no," then you know what that makes you. If the answer is "yes," that makes you, uh, untruthful.
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