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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
"We are the ones we've been waiting for." I salaam in your direction.
"We are the ones we've been waiting for." I salaam in your direction.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Simple. Because it serves our interest more for the problem to be solved, and Israel and Palestine are incapable of solving it.
Or maybe America could just bud the **** out. Let Israel and Palestine work it out (or not) themselves. America forcing crap upon these two nations is not helping matters. How about we fix our own problems then worry about everything else.
edit: or broncos plan
Simple. Because it serves our interest more for the problem to be solved, and Israel and Palestine are incapable of solving it.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Would a Palestinian state that exists entirely as an island inside Israel be more stable and secure over the long term than a state that bordered Israel to the West and Jordan to the East?
Would a Palestinian state that exists entirely as an island inside Israel be more stable and secure over the long term than a state that bordered Israel to the West and Jordan to the East?
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I'm with you until the last sentence which is pure idiocy. Beyond that nothing you've wrote seems different from what I'm saying, which is the US gives it until the end of the year, and then says "see ya". That includes both foreign aid to Israel as well as diplomatic aid to the Palestinians. If both sides like things the way they are (think of the abortion issue in the US) then there's nothing more for the US to do except withdraw and let them fight it out amonst themselves.
I'm with you until the last sentence which is pure idiocy. Beyond that nothing you've wrote seems different from what I'm saying, which is the US gives it until the end of the year, and then says "see ya". That includes both foreign aid to Israel as well as diplomatic aid to the Palestinians. If both sides like things the way they are (think of the abortion issue in the US) then there's nothing more for the US to do except withdraw and let them fight it out amonst themselves.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
America is doing more harm than good. If both sides are incapable of solving it nothing America says is going to change that. It amounts to tilting at windmills.
America is doing more harm than good. If both sides are incapable of solving it nothing America says is going to change that. It amounts to tilting at windmills.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
The main reason why previous American efforts have failed is a lack of U.S. leadership. Feel-good photo ops don't count. You say we've failed; I say we've never actually tried.
The U.S. may lack the will to resolve the impasse, but not the capability. The two sides don't need to like each other. They don't need to like the U.S., either. They need a complete deal - no brackets on important issues like Jerusalem - and they need to understand that, since the U.S. formally recognizes both states, cross-border violence and continued sponsorship of terrorism will be considered an act of war. And the U.S. is prepared fully to defend the victim.
The main reason why previous American efforts have failed is a lack of U.S. leadership. Feel-good photo ops don't count. You say we've failed; I say we've never actually tried.
The U.S. may lack the will to resolve the impasse, but not the capability. The two sides don't need to like each other. They don't need to like the U.S., either. They need a complete deal - no brackets on important issues like Jerusalem - and they need to understand that, since the U.S. formally recognizes both states, cross-border violence and continued sponsorship of terrorism will be considered an act of war. And the U.S. is prepared fully to defend the victim.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
What do we offer the "Palestinians" to get them to renounce their desire to rid the world of Israel? And how can we trust them if they agree?
What do we offer the "Palestinians" to get them to renounce their desire to rid the world of Israel? And how can we trust them if they agree?
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
There's a real question, though, whether the US being involved is actually helping the two sides towards an accord. The Arab far left picks apart any US-backed initiative as neocolonialism. The Israeli far right can be completely intransigent because they know they're backed up by unlimited US money and military muscle.
US administrations have been working for peace in the Middle East since the 1960's -- some (Nixon, Carter, Clinton) very aggressively. "Not trying hard enough" is not the problem. It's just an insanely difficult situation -- the most difficult geopolitical problem on the map.
There have been other really difficult and long-lasting geopolitical problems in history (French-British colonial rivalries, first in North America, then in India, French-German border disputes, the Balkans). These things don't last forever but depressingly they are usually not resolved without one side clearly winning and imposing its will.
There's a real question, though, whether the US being involved is actually helping the two sides towards an accord. The Arab far left picks apart any US-backed initiative as neocolonialism. The Israeli far right can be completely intransigent because they know they're backed up by unlimited US money and military muscle.
US administrations have been working for peace in the Middle East since the 1960's -- some (Nixon, Carter, Clinton) very aggressively. "Not trying hard enough" is not the problem. It's just an insanely difficult situation -- the most difficult geopolitical problem on the map.
There have been other really difficult and long-lasting geopolitical problems in history (French-British colonial rivalries, first in North America, then in India, French-German border disputes, the Balkans). These things don't last forever but depressingly they are usually not resolved without one side clearly winning and imposing its will.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I dunno. I don't have it all worked out. My earlier post mostly reflected annoyance with the narrative that we should learn from 40 years of failure. I agree, but I'm not sure I see the same failure.
The U.S. doesn't have the option of avoiding propaganda. If the U.S. continues to sit on its hands, those same elements in the Arab world will only scream neocolonialism more loudly. I wouldn't underestimate the result of formally recognizing a Palestinian state.
As for Israel . . . *shakes head*. Where to begin? It's funny to see the extent to which domestic partisanship infiltrates these issues. The same conservatives who railed against the symbolic diminishment of the presidency when Obama bowed to whoever it was . . . cheered Netanyahu's verbal undressing of Obama. I don't care who you are, or how much you dislike Obama, that's unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. Israel needs to understand that the U.S. is unequivocally committed to their security. They also need to understand that they're the junior partner in this alliance. They need to understand that their words and actions have consequences.
Take settlements in the West Bank. Nobody who is serious about this issue who knows anything about geopolitics is interested in a Palestine that's swallowed entirely by Israel. A Palestinian state will have to border Jordan to the East. Israel is going to have to concede on those settlements.
And if there's a fundamental problem with my approach, it's right there. It doesn't require a president to throw Israel under the bus. Not by any means. But it does require a president to be prepared to be tough with Israel. And we both know that doing anything less than kneeling and blowing Netanyahu will produce screams of outrage on the domestic front.
I dunno. I don't have it all worked out. My earlier post mostly reflected annoyance with the narrative that we should learn from 40 years of failure. I agree, but I'm not sure I see the same failure.
The U.S. doesn't have the option of avoiding propaganda. If the U.S. continues to sit on its hands, those same elements in the Arab world will only scream neocolonialism more loudly. I wouldn't underestimate the result of formally recognizing a Palestinian state.
As for Israel . . . *shakes head*. Where to begin? It's funny to see the extent to which domestic partisanship infiltrates these issues. The same conservatives who railed against the symbolic diminishment of the presidency when Obama bowed to whoever it was . . . cheered Netanyahu's verbal undressing of Obama. I don't care who you are, or how much you dislike Obama, that's unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. Israel needs to understand that the U.S. is unequivocally committed to their security. They also need to understand that they're the junior partner in this alliance. They need to understand that their words and actions have consequences.
Take settlements in the West Bank. Nobody who is serious about this issue who knows anything about geopolitics is interested in a Palestine that's swallowed entirely by Israel. A Palestinian state will have to border Jordan to the East. Israel is going to have to concede on those settlements.
And if there's a fundamental problem with my approach, it's right there. It doesn't require a president to throw Israel under the bus. Not by any means. But it does require a president to be prepared to be tough with Israel. And we both know that doing anything less than kneeling and blowing Netanyahu will produce screams of outrage on the domestic front.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Well, for one thing, we'll kill them if they renege. That's what I meant by a mutual security guarantee.
But I don't think it will come to that. Don't have time to get too much into it, so we can take a shortcut right now and agree to disagree, The really short version is that in the Arab world, the Palestinians are more a political tool than a source of spiritual inspiration. I don't see this as a "wag the dog" situation.
Well, for one thing, we'll kill them if they renege. That's what I meant by a mutual security guarantee.
But I don't think it will come to that. Don't have time to get too much into it, so we can take a shortcut right now and agree to disagree, The really short version is that in the Arab world, the Palestinians are more a political tool than a source of spiritual inspiration. I don't see this as a "wag the dog" situation.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
If it were a Dem president, or even a centrist Republican, that wouldn't be enough either. The Neocons completely co-opted the issue of Israel during their run-up to power, and now if you aren't a member of their clique, no matter what you do it's Dolchstoßlegende. If Obama nuked Tehran there would be howls of outrage from the right that he ignored Damascus. NRO rhetoric on this is completely unserious and should simply be ignored.
If it were a Dem president, or even a centrist Republican, that wouldn't be enough either. The Neocons completely co-opted the issue of Israel during their run-up to power, and now if you aren't a member of their clique, no matter what you do it's Dolchstoßlegende. If Obama nuked Tehran there would be howls of outrage from the right that he ignored Damascus. NRO rhetoric on this is completely unserious and should simply be ignored.
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I agree that it's not from a lack of trying on the U.S.' part. Certainly we could have done things differently at times, but the bottom line is, as you say, it's just an insanely complex situation where it's almost impossible if not impossible to satisfy both sides. A further complication is that the Palestinian side is hard to nogiate with, as it's rather fractured, so even if Abbas signs onto something, you're likely to have sizable chunks of Palestinians who don't give up the goal of destroying Israel. Take the concern about Egypt, post Mubarek fall, backtracking on their peace with Israel, and multiply by about a thousand as to how much you could trust anything worked out with the Palestinians.
I agree that it's not from a lack of trying on the U.S.' part. Certainly we could have done things differently at times, but the bottom line is, as you say, it's just an insanely complex situation where it's almost impossible if not impossible to satisfy both sides. A further complication is that the Palestinian side is hard to nogiate with, as it's rather fractured, so even if Abbas signs onto something, you're likely to have sizable chunks of Palestinians who don't give up the goal of destroying Israel. Take the concern about Egypt, post Mubarek fall, backtracking on their peace with Israel, and multiply by about a thousand as to how much you could trust anything worked out with the Palestinians.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
This may be another reason to get behind the formation of a Palestinian state. Right now, all arrows of Palestinian outrage point outwards. Once they have a functioning political system, much of that energy will be self-canceling through domestic politics. That's one reason states are stabilizing -- they create a venue where factions can take turns "winning" (bleeding off resentment) and compromising (when they face the realities of actually having to govern, rather than just complain). Look at the laughable levels of fist-shaking outrage in this country, compared with an almost complete lack of actual violence.
For a functionalist model of our political system, it's hard to beat this.
This may be another reason to get behind the formation of a Palestinian state. Right now, all arrows of Palestinian outrage point outwards. Once they have a functioning political system, much of that energy will be self-canceling through domestic politics. That's one reason states are stabilizing -- they create a venue where factions can take turns "winning" (bleeding off resentment) and compromising (when they face the realities of actually having to govern, rather than just complain). Look at the laughable levels of fist-shaking outrage in this country, compared with an almost complete lack of actual violence.
For a functionalist model of our political system, it's hard to beat this.
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Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
Honest question...if you were Israel would you believe any peace accord signed by the Palestinians? Hell, would you even have a reason to trust they are negotiating in good faith? Take everything else out of it, if you have tried multiple times over the years to make peace and the other side basically is like Lucy with the football, how many times are you supposed to be Charlie Brown? Especially when instead of just falling on your head is actually getting blown up in the real world?
America is too arrogant to be involved in this. We have this idea that since we are obviously so perfect then if we just stand behind them like an Elementary School teacher the kids will play nice. They won't. The Israelis are scared and ticked off and the Palestinians are the same plus have no real leadership. And yet somehow we think we can force peace upon them? That somehow giving up a large swath of land is going to change anything?
BTW I have now turned on this, after looking at the map the 1967 borders are idiotic. Jerusalem will become a hot zone. Within ten years it would be almost a guarantee war would happen. You don't think Palestine's Arab "allys" would not use this new inroad to attack Israel? Man I wish I was that naive...hey want to buy a bridge I am selling in San Fransisco...dirt cheap!!
My dad brought up a good point last night...why does Israel have to give up the land for peace? They didn't attack Jordan and the other Mid-East countries...yet Israel gave back the Sinai to broker peace with Egypt. Now they are expected to give up the "occupied territories" to broker peace with the Palestinians. Next it will be the Golan Heights to broker peace with Syria and Lebanon. It is the perfect plan for the Arab world...they can get everything they want without firing a shot and still rail on America and Israel (including calling for genocides) non-stop. Brilliant! Where else does this type of peace dealings ever happen? I don't seem to remember America giving back some colonies in hopes of peace with England post Revolution...oh wait we were righteous, the Israelis are just a bunch Jews we placate because of the Holocaust and to win votes in New York. (yes I know that isnt true, but that is the feeling going around right now...)
Honest question...if you were Israel would you believe any peace accord signed by the Palestinians? Hell, would you even have a reason to trust they are negotiating in good faith? Take everything else out of it, if you have tried multiple times over the years to make peace and the other side basically is like Lucy with the football, how many times are you supposed to be Charlie Brown? Especially when instead of just falling on your head is actually getting blown up in the real world?
America is too arrogant to be involved in this. We have this idea that since we are obviously so perfect then if we just stand behind them like an Elementary School teacher the kids will play nice. They won't. The Israelis are scared and ticked off and the Palestinians are the same plus have no real leadership. And yet somehow we think we can force peace upon them? That somehow giving up a large swath of land is going to change anything?
BTW I have now turned on this, after looking at the map the 1967 borders are idiotic. Jerusalem will become a hot zone. Within ten years it would be almost a guarantee war would happen. You don't think Palestine's Arab "allys" would not use this new inroad to attack Israel? Man I wish I was that naive...hey want to buy a bridge I am selling in San Fransisco...dirt cheap!!
My dad brought up a good point last night...why does Israel have to give up the land for peace? They didn't attack Jordan and the other Mid-East countries...yet Israel gave back the Sinai to broker peace with Egypt. Now they are expected to give up the "occupied territories" to broker peace with the Palestinians. Next it will be the Golan Heights to broker peace with Syria and Lebanon. It is the perfect plan for the Arab world...they can get everything they want without firing a shot and still rail on America and Israel (including calling for genocides) non-stop. Brilliant! Where else does this type of peace dealings ever happen? I don't seem to remember America giving back some colonies in hopes of peace with England post Revolution...oh wait we were righteous, the Israelis are just a bunch Jews we placate because of the Holocaust and to win votes in New York. (yes I know that isnt true, but that is the feeling going around right now...)
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I think it depends on which of us is speaking. I personally can't imagine us walking away from Israel completely, but I believe such a sentiment has gained a lot more ground in this country than it used to have, so I wouldn't be shocked if this was pushed more heavily as times goes by.
I think it depends on which of us is speaking. I personally can't imagine us walking away from Israel completely, but I believe such a sentiment has gained a lot more ground in this country than it used to have, so I wouldn't be shocked if this was pushed more heavily as times goes by.
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!
I would allow arms sales to Israel. Not paid for by American aide but an actual dollars for goods transaction. That's it. The $10Bn in US taxpayer dollars they get ever year? Gone. That allows Israel to do what they want to without the US looking over their shoulder in terms of defending their country. When UN resolutions came up, US abstains from voting. Before somebody asks, I would not allow arms sales to the Palestinians so I guess you can construe this is me favoring one side over the other but so be it.
I would allow arms sales to Israel. Not paid for by American aide but an actual dollars for goods transaction. That's it. The $10Bn in US taxpayer dollars they get ever year? Gone. That allows Israel to do what they want to without the US looking over their shoulder in terms of defending their country. When UN resolutions came up, US abstains from voting. Before somebody asks, I would not allow arms sales to the Palestinians so I guess you can construe this is me favoring one side over the other but so be it.
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