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Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I dunno...if they chose to attack Israel, unless they go nuclear they will get one days worth of advantage before Israel retaliates (and destroys them since none of these nations have an army built for war) or the international community steps in. It is one thing when terrorist organizations do it, but if actual nations declare war and attack the world will not look away. America stepping back will sort of be the final step to say "prove to us you can behave" and when they cant everyone will pimpslap them.

Now if the worry is nuclear that is different, but I honestly dont think anyone will use nuclear weapons...even the craziest of the crazies. I admit that I am naive on that idea, but no one has yet and there are plenty of nations with nuclear capabilities that have similar situations and never use them. I hope I am not wrong there :/
Using thermonuclear weapons is a political decision, not a military one. IIRC, Israel was assembling the nukes in 1973 when there was a strong possibility that Syria was going to overrun the Golan Heights and have a clear path to the heart of Israel. Fortunately, the IDF held and no nukes were necessary.

IMO, if it looks like Israel is going to go down, they nuke. They have a long genetic memory.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

NATO had no issue bombing the crap out of Libya, they would do the same here.

I think you overinflate how effective the Arab Nations would be (jmho) but let us hope we never find out.

It won't matter anyways, America is way too arrogant to ever even contemplate leaving the area. Do it our way or we will wag our finger at you and squint our eyes!! ;)
Bombing half of Libya and a dictator who is reviled almost universally is a whole lot easier than bombing runs to counter, say, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, if they decide to take a shot a taking Israel out.

I don't think that the Arab nations can stand directly toe to toe with Israel, but they certainly are far more capable than they were back in '49, '67, or '73, if for no other reason than the U.S. and other countries have sold them a lot better weaponry. They might take a terrible beating, but Israel is such a small country that you can really hurt them even while being on the losing end of the fight. Israel has virtually no strategic depth to its nation. There are few if any places that would be out of reach of missiles from Hezbollah and others.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Which is why I believe US forces in the region are the only logical threat to the Arab states who might contemplate an attack on Israel. Think of our forces in Korea, which will probably be overrun should Kim attack the south. But those are US troops, and if that mad dwarf overruns them, he won't like our response. We keep thinking about Moshe Dayan and the '67 war, well, technology has improved pretty dramatically since then. Israel might be planning to rely on satellites to give them an unambiguous heads up to a potential attack. Remember, it was satellite imagery that convinced the Saudis Hussein was planning to invade in the first Gulf war. Israel would have to respond before the attack, which means they'd be accused of "starting" the war.
It is an option to have some forces there serve as a deterrent, but unlike Korea, where our forces have been for decades now without any substantive attack on them from North Korea, you stick American troops around the Levant, and they would be very tempting targets for the more radical Muslim elements. The Marine barracks in Beirut is a painful example.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I think there are only two scenarios where the US walks away from Israel and leaves them on their own, and both would require long term thinking and patience on the part of the surrounding Arabs and outright stupidity from the Israelis, so not a likely concern.

1. Some Palestinian reads up on MLK, Gandhi and non-violent protesting and they go all-in on that to stop settlements from being created and the Israelis respond with weapon fire. This was a sub-plot in Clancy's Sum of All Fears, IIRC.

2. The Arab demographics grow at an exponential rate and the Israelis are forced to abandon democracy and institute some kind of apartheid to keep their Jewish State because they're a minority in their own land.

I don't think the Arabs are ever going to give in. As far as they're concerned, the Jews are just another version of the Crusader Kingdoms, and though it took 200 years, they got rid of those, too.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

How exactly does the international community step in after a day of war between Israel and its neighboring countries? I don't see a lot of appetite for that, or capacity in many cases. While Israel has a very formidable military, their opponents would have a lot of capacity to do damage to Israel very quickly. Just take Hezbollah's 10,000 missiles and drop a good chunk of those on Israel, not to mention other nations' missile and other capabilities. The retaliation from Israel would be swift and severe undoubtedly, but with modern weapons, a full out war would be very messy very quickly, and hard to untangle and settle.

The international community will have a hard time doing ANYTHING with a straight face if the Arab mask slips... either the international community will step back in horror or they'll double down. The international community (see: international liberal/socialists) still has to appeal to a core set of ideas that usually wouldn't allow for the ruination of Israel... on the other hand, they've been steeped in anti-Israeli and anti-Jew language and phrasing for over half a century now. It would be interesting to see how people break... and I pray that day doesn't come because it will speak volumes to the future of western democracy and the heart of Europe.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

It is an option to have some forces there serve as a deterrent, but unlike Korea, where our forces have been for decades now without any substantive attack on them from North Korea, you stick American troops around the Levant, and they would be very tempting targets for the more radical Muslim elements. The Marine barracks in Beirut is a painful example.

Not a direct analogy, to be sure. But given the improvement of Arab weaponry, I'm not convinced Israel's safety can be guaranteed unless they would be willing to attack "preemptively." And I seem to remember some folks having a hissy fit about that concept in another context. And those are the same folks (Code Pink, for one) who would have another hissy fit if Israel attacked first, knowing that the Arabs were about to pull the trigger. Any American president would play h*ll getting forces stationed there, absent a mutual defense treaty. And that president would play h*ll getting such a treaty through the Senate (see earlier Code Pink reference). My point is that Israel doesn't have as much time to defend herself as she did 40 years ago. Advancing technology has made this problem that much more difficult to solve. For sure, the problem cannot be resolved by turning Israel over to the tender mercies of Hamas and Hezbollah.

BTW, if we develop and deploy those new, non-nuclear ICBM's, that could possibly eliminate the need to have any US forces in a dangerous neighborhood. And would give the president the option of showering key Arab targets with highly accurate, MIRVed warheads that could literally kick their teeth in.
 
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Couldn't get link to work...I thought this was particularly one-sided, less of a fact check than an opinion check.

FACT CHECK: Netanyahu speech ignores rival claims
(AP) – 15 hours ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave an impassioned defense of his approach to peace during a speech to Congress on Tuesday. But the address reflected the world view of Israel's nationalistic right wing, one of several conflicting narratives that divide Israelis and Palestinians.

Here is a sampling of Netanyahu's claims along with what he did not mention.

___

NETANYAHU: "You don't need to send American troops to Israel. We defend ourselves."

THE FACTS: Israel is a leading recipient of American foreign aid, including more than $1 billion in military assistance each year.

___

NETANYAHU: "In Judea and Samaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers. We are not the British in India. We are not the Belgians in the Congo."

THE FACTS: While the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria, is promised to the Jewish people in the Bible, the international community considers the West Bank occupied territory. Israel captured the area in the 1967 Mideast war but has never annexed it. Its occupied status is underscored by the presence of tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers who protect Israeli settlements and control the movement of Palestinian residents in the name of security.

___

NETANYAHU: "You don't need to export democracy to Israel. We've already got it."

THE FACTS: Israel does give its Arab minority full civil rights, including participation in elections. But Israeli Arabs suffer from systematic discrimination in housing and the workplace. Also, more than 2 million Palestinians living in the West Bank do not have Israeli citizenship and therefore cannot vote in Israeli elections.

___

NETANYAHU: "The vast majority of the 650,000 Israelis who live beyond the 1967 lines reside in neighborhoods and suburbs of Jerusalem and greater Tel Aviv."

THE FACTS: Nearly all of these communities were built in the face of overwhelming international opposition and are considered illegal settlements by the world, including the U.S. There are 300,000 Israelis living in the West Bank and 200,000 in east Jerusalem, making a total of 500,000.

___

NETANYAHU: "The Palestinian economy is booming. It's growing by more than 10 percent a year."

THE FACTS: The West Bank economy is indeed growing rapidly. But the World Bank has noted that the growth comes after years of contraction during fighting with Israel and has been fueled by huge amounts of foreign aid. It warns the growth is unsustainable unless Israel does more to encourage the Palestinian private sector.

___

NETANYAHU: "Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of al-Qaida."

THE FACTS: While Hamas and al-Qaida have killed hundreds of people in religious holy wars, they have no connection, and Hamas has in fact come under criticism from the global terror network for being too moderate. Al-Qaida preaches global jihad. Hamas says its struggle is solely against Israel, not the West at large. In its Gaza stronghold, Hamas has violently clashed with smaller armed groups that claim inspiration from al-Qaida.

Josef Federman can be reached at www.twitter.com/joseffederman

Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I think there are only two scenarios where the US walks away from Israel and leaves them on their own, and both would require long term thinking and patience on the part of the surrounding Arabs and outright stupidity from the Israelis, so not a likely concern.

1. Some Palestinian reads up on MLK, Gandhi and non-violent protesting and they go all-in on that to stop settlements from being created and the Israelis respond with weapon fire. This was a sub-plot in Clancy's Sum of All Fears, IIRC.

2. The Arab demographics grow at an exponential rate and the Israelis are forced to abandon democracy and institute some kind of apartheid to keep their Jewish State because they're a minority in their own land.

I don't think the Arabs are ever going to give in. As far as they're concerned, the Jews are just another version of the Crusader Kingdoms, and though it took 200 years, they got rid of those, too.

This pretty much sums it all up.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Couldn't get link to work...I thought this was particularly one-sided, less of a fact check than an opinion check.

IMO there's a bit of a double standard. Many are for largely financial bail out for Israel but not US states. Many are for protecting Israelis who might be taken advantage of...and not lower income Americans. For me, I'd like to see both to a lesser extent. Others like to see high levels of Israeli support with little or no American support. Let's just be consistent here.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

pirate,

Saw that fact check to, and stopped reading about halfway through, as it was very biased.


5mn,

That sounds nice, but the facts are that you could eliminate all foreign aid and it's be a drop in the bucket to do anything major domestically. People complain about foreign aid, and I think in some situations there are reasonable questions to ask, based on the merits of some situations, but compared to the rest of the federal budget, foreign aid is tiddlywinks. The idea that we can take care of ours by just not giving out the foreign aid we do just doesn't stand up to even a brief look at the numbers.


Agreed on bronconick's assessment.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

pirate,

Saw that fact check to, and stopped reading about halfway through, as it was very biased.

Very biased doesnt even cover it. Israel is wrong because they never officially annexed a piece of land they won in a war? Would it be ok with the man if they just called it a "territory" in true democratic fashion and acted the same way?

Why dont those 2 million Palestinians have citizenship? Did they ask for it and were denied or did they not care to gain it like the rest of the Palestinians who are citizens? (I honestly dont know hence why I asked the so called "fact checker") Context is helpful.

I love how the author then uses Netanyahu's Al-Qaida comment as a "fact check" by comparing the two. (and talking about how Hamas has clashed with AQ...like that is somehow relevant) Hamas only attacks Israel whereas Al-Qaida wants global jihad. (our terrorists are more dangerous than yours) Of course America has been attacked by AQ how many times in the past 20 years (and we have fought a war for a decade because of it) and Hamas has attacked Israel how many times in that same period? This is what I meant a few days back when I said "America would never negotiate with terrorists but for some reason Israel is expected to". Federman sounds like the PR lackey for Hamas with his comments.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

IMO there's a bit of a double standard. Many are for largely financial bail out for Israel but not US states. Many are for protecting Israelis who might be taken advantage of...and not lower income Americans. For me, I'd like to see both to a lesser extent. Others like to see high levels of Israeli support with little or no American support. Let's just be consistent here.

I'm not sure if you are questioning my consistency as I've never linked the aid to Israel as more/less/equal in importance to aiding Americans.

But, I've got a few minutes before my next meeting...in a ROI comparison, what is more valuable to US interests...spending $1B to make sure Israel is able to keep its foothold or 'whatever we'd spend the next $1B on domestically'? It is a hard question to answer to be sure. My guess is that if Israel were to A) enter a war B) be overrun...we'd spend more than $1B a year in some way, shape or form to address the situation (however we would define that).

Now, politically we could twist that into us liking Israel more than our own people but we'd also have to say we like exploring Mars more than our own people, convicts more than the most impoverished, satelites more than schools, etc.

I'm not saying that there aren't some head scratchers in the whole scheme of things but I don't think we can take 1 or 2 things and make a value judgment such as we like protecting the grey wolf or testing electric cars more than we like starving children.

It may generate votes from the "yeah, why spend it on them when you could spend it on me?", constituency...but that doesn't mean it is the right comparison.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

New Chairman of Joint Chiefs: Army Gen. Martin Dempsey

Anyone have any idea about him, or what sort of counsel he'll give to the White House? (as in Pro-COIN / conservative anti-COIN . . . that sort of thing)
 
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

anybody here fired up on the plan to print more money to give to Greece? I don't quite understand what motivation the prez has for this, given our own almost-as-bad situation.

Because foreign aid makes up such a huge percentage of our national budget...

No, no I'm not fired up about it at all. That's pennies compared to what we spend on Iraq.
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

New Chairman of Joint Chiefs: Army Gen. Martin Dempsey

Anyone have any idea about him, or what sort of counsel he'll give to the White House? (as in Pro-COIN / conservative anti-COIN . . . that sort of thing)

Here's a 10,000 foot level he gave at an army breakfast a couple months ago. (To be honest, it's almost completely vacuous, as are all such speeches.) But he's probably the first CJCOSC to quote Seinfeld.
 
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Because foreign aid makes up such a huge percentage of our national budget...

No, no I'm not fired up about it at all. That's pennies compared to what we spend on Iraq.

"68% think we spend too much on foreign aid. 59% think it should be cut."
"Respondents estimate foreign aid to be 15% of the federal budget. It's one percent of the federal budget."
 
Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

"68% think we spend too much on foreign aid. 59% think it should be cut."
"Respondents estimate foreign aid to be 15% of the federal budget. It's one percent of the federal budget."

Maybe they think funds that go to anybody who isn't part of "Real America" are foreign aid? ;)

2008-10-24-areyouHUFF.jpg


(Note: definition of "real American" changed in 2009 to having a patriotic opposition to the evil usurper in the White House.)
 
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Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Because foreign aid makes up such a huge percentage of our national budget...

No, no I'm not fired up about it at all. That's pennies compared to what we spend on Iraq.

By that rationale then I'm guessing you don't care about repealing the Bush tax rates for the "rich" as it would make up approx the same amount as foreign aid.

If we can't cut the little things how are we ever going to be able to tackle the big ones?
 
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