Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

For clarity, are folks saying we walk away from support of Israel completely or just get out of the negotiations?

There are probably people who would argue the former, but I would say we should support Israel the way we support a close ally who is also obviously playing their own game (other good examples: France and Saudi Arabia). So, we should always keep vetoing UN Resolutions that are designed to jam them. But if (when) they get caught spying on us (they are extremely aggressive in spying on us, behind only China and the Russians) I'd cut off weapon sales for a while to curb their enthusiasm.

The giveaway aid is part of the Camp David Accord (same as Egypt) so it's not that big a price to pay to prop up that agreement, but let's agree that it's on par with the Egypt payments -- it's a bribe to behave. If either side ever attacks the other, we should cut off their goodies. Hopefully that will never happen -- paying tribute for peace is almost always cheaper.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I personally can't imagine us walking away from Israel completely, but I believe such a sentiment has gained a lot more ground in this country than it used to have

I think it's the opposite, actually. It used to be Dems supported Israel (strong lobby) and Republicans kind of ignored them, except to sometimes say "foreign aid is bad." Now Republicans support Israel (strong lobby plus the usual crazies) while Dems still support Israel (strong lobby). I don't see Michael Moore in Congress, so there's really nobody who wants to cut out.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Well, for one thing, we'll kill them if they renege. That's what I meant by a mutual security guarantee.

But I don't think it will come to that. Don't have time to get too much into it, so we can take a shortcut right now and agree to disagree, The really short version is that in the Arab world, the Palestinians are more a political tool than a source of spiritual inspiration. I don't see this as a "wag the dog" situation.

This is a military commitment whomever is occupying the WH should spell out very clearly. We haven't done it so far, under multiple administrations. As to the "Palestinians" being a "political tool," you've got it exactly right. Which is why I have something approaching zero sympathy for them. Murderers, terrorists, would-be genocidalists--not exactly resume high points you ask me.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I think it's the opposite, actually. It used to be Dems supported Israel (strong lobby) and Republicans kind of ignored them, except to sometimes say "foreign aid is bad." Now Republicans support Israel (strong lobby plus the usual crazies) while Dems still support Israel (strong lobby). I don't see Michael Moore in Congress, so there's really nobody who wants to cut out.

There's a lot of sympathy in parts of the Dem camp for the Palestinians and thus not as much support for Israel. It used to be the Palestinians had little traction in the U.S. with anybody credible or in power. That's certainly changed dramatically, though I'd say Israel overall still has the upper hand.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Well, for one thing, we'll kill them if they renege. That's what I meant by a mutual security guarantee.

But I don't think it will come to that. Don't have time to get too much into it, so we can take a shortcut right now and agree to disagree, The really short version is that in the Arab world, the Palestinians are more a political tool than a source of spiritual inspiration. I don't see this as a "wag the dog" situation.

We'll kill the Palestinians if they renege? Oh, please. Yah, we're going to go attack the Palestinians in a meaningful way if they don't hew the line and be nice and peaceful all the sudden. Not a chance. Or not a chance if this country has half a brain working when it considers its foreign and military policies. Do we just nuke them (along with all the Israelis still in the area) or do we send in troops to fight in Gaza, the West Bank, etc.? That's just not realistic and would be a huge mess in many ways.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Yes. We will kill them until they are dead. It was a silly phrase, I'll grant.

But saying that we would regard the violation of an Israel/Palestine border as an act of war? That's not silly.

I'm not talking about the garden-variety 15yr old setting off a bomb in a cafe. With a clearly-defined border, and clearly-established sovereignty, those possibilities go way down. Hell, that's one of the basic problems with the status quo. You couldn't design a less secure arrangement than to have a nebulous palestinian territory completely inside of another nation-state. Or were you supposing that Israel would leave the border unguarded?

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

If there is no superpower (guess that's us) looking over the Middle East's shoulder, do the Arabs take another shot?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Yes. We will kill them until they are dead. It was a silly phrase, I'll grant.

But saying that we would regard the violation of an Israel/Palestine border as an act of war? That's not silly.

I'm not talking about the garden-variety 15yr old setting off a bomb in a cafe. With a clearly-defined border, and clearly-established sovereignty, those possibilities go way down. Hell, that's one of the basic problems with the status quo. You couldn't design a less secure arrangement than to have a nebulous palestinian territory completely inside of another nation-state. Or were you supposing that Israel would leave the border unguarded?

Such an open ended military commitment would require us to sign a treaty, since any subsequent president could simply walk away from it. The debate on that treaty in the Senate would be a doozy. I'm not sure the American people would want us to be obligated by treaty to defend Israel. I mean, NATO's one thing, this would be quite another. Yes, you could design a less secure arrangement: going back to those 1949 treaty lines would do it nicely.

And wouldn't we have to have a base in Israel to give credence to our threats? To have our forces act as a "trip wire?" I can see Israel's liberals going for that in a big way. Unless we speed up the development and deployment of those new non-nuclear ICBM's that can hit anywyhere in the world in less than an hour (which I support whole heartedly), that could potentially obviate the need for a base.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Yes. We will kill them until they are dead. It was a silly phrase, I'll grant.

But saying that we would regard the violation of an Israel/Palestine border as an act of war? That's not silly.

I'm not talking about the garden-variety 15yr old setting off a bomb in a cafe. With a clearly-defined border, and clearly-established sovereignty, those possibilities go way down. Hell, that's one of the basic problems with the status quo. You couldn't design a less secure arrangement than to have a nebulous palestinian territory completely inside of another nation-state. Or were you supposing that Israel would leave the border unguarded?

I think you mean well, but I honestly dont think you understand one bit the situation over there or what America will do. If the Palestinians broke the peace accord America would do jack crap. They would point and wag their finger like Colbert, but he would actually mean it more. America would do nothing to upset the power structure there and even hinting at action against the Palestinians would upset all the wrong people in all the wrong nations. We support Democracy only when it doesnt get in the way of filling up our SUVs. That is why we support (militarily) Libyans but no one else. (minus some stern words for Egypt...)

Dont get me wrong they would act better than Europe who would blame Israel the whole time but if you honestly think America would lift a finger against the Palestinian State then you need to pass me the bong cause I need some of the good stuff you are smoking man.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

If there is no superpower (guess that's us) looking over the Middle East's shoulder, do the Arabs take another shot?

No because they have no organized military. Plus Arabs view Jews like Republicans view abortion...they hate them but need them around to raise money. (or martyrs)

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I think you mean well, but I honestly dont think you understand one bit the situation over there or what America will do. If the Palestinians broke the peace accord America would do jack crap. They would point and wag their finger like Colbert, but he would actually mean it more. America would do nothing to upset the power structure there and even hinting at action against the Palestinians would upset all the wrong people in all the wrong nations. We support Democracy only when it doesnt get in the way of filling up our SUVs. That is why we support (militarily) Libyans but no one else. (minus some stern words for Egypt...)

Dont get me wrong they would act better than Europe who would blame Israel the whole time but if you honestly think America would lift a finger against the Palestinian State then you need to pass me the bong cause I need some of the good stuff you are smoking man.

Whoa - where did this thread turn into a prediction contest? I'm not putting money on Obama actually doing this. Or Tim freaking Pawlenty.

You could interpret this whole tangent from me as exasperation with the stupidity of American politics. The Republicans are right that this country is exceptional. Not only is this country able to shape the world around it, we would all be worse off if the U.S. stopped trying. Their problem is that they can't seem to get power without also getting stupid. Rank and file Democrats (and the Rand Pauls of the world) are convinced that this country is in irrevocable decline, and if elected, they'll do their best to prove it. (paraphrasing PJ O'Rourke)

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

This can't possibly be true, can it?

http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/23/report-biden-considering-2016-run-for-president/

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Whoa - where did this thread turn into a prediction contest? I'm not putting money on Obama actually doing this. Or Tim freaking Pawlenty.

You could interpret this whole tangent from me as exasperation with the stupidity of American politics. The Republicans are right that this country is exceptional. Not only is this country able to shape the world around it, we would all be worse off if the U.S. stopped trying. Their problem is that they can't seem to get power without also getting stupid. Rank and file Democrats (and the Rand Pauls of the world) are convinced that this country is in irrevocable decline, and if elected, they'll do their best to prove it. (paraphrasing PJ O'Rourke)

Power corrupts...absolute power makes you a moron

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

If there is no superpower (guess that's us) looking over the Middle East's shoulder, do the Arabs take another shot?

Can we afford to find out? With today's tactics and technology, I don't think the next one is going to be another game of Tank Battle. I wouldn't think we'd want to be trying to figure out how we 'look involved' in that type of conflict without getting our hands dirty. I do think we have huge incentive to do whatever it takes to keep both sides 'safe'.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Can we afford to find out? With today's tactics and technology, I don't think the next one is going to be another game of Tank Battle. I wouldn't think we'd want to be trying to figure out how we 'look involved' in that type of conflict without getting our hands dirty. I do think we have huge incentive to do whatever it takes to keep both sides 'safe'.

Yah, next time will make all the previous Arab attacks on Israel look minor in comparison. And I think there's at least some recognition of that on both sides, though some of these unstable/radical Arab regimes migh try to cause some problems if they think they're going out of power and want to go with a bang or regain street popularity by attacking Israel.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

What does it mean?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Yah, next time will make all the previous Arab attacks on Israel look minor in comparison. And I think there's at least some recognition of that on both sides, though some of these unstable/radical Arab regimes migh try to cause some problems if they think they're going out of power and want to go with a bang or regain street popularity by attacking Israel.

I dunno...if they chose to attack Israel, unless they go nuclear they will get one days worth of advantage before Israel retaliates (and destroys them since none of these nations have an army built for war) or the international community steps in. It is one thing when terrorist organizations do it, but if actual nations declare war and attack the world will not look away. America stepping back will sort of be the final step to say "prove to us you can behave" and when they cant everyone will pimpslap them.

Now if the worry is nuclear that is different, but I honestly dont think anyone will use nuclear weapons...even the craziest of the crazies. I admit that I am naive on that idea, but no one has yet and there are plenty of nations with nuclear capabilities that have similar situations and never use them. I hope I am not wrong there :/

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I dunno...if they chose to attack Israel, unless they go nuclear they will get one days worth of advantage before Israel retaliates (and destroys them since none of these nations have an army built for war) or the international community steps in. It is one thing when terrorist organizations do it, but if actual nations declare war and attack the world will not look away. America stepping back will sort of be the final step to say "prove to us you can behave" and when they cant everyone will pimpslap them.

Now if the worry is nuclear that is different, but I honestly dont think anyone will use nuclear weapons...even the craziest of the crazies. I admit that I am naive on that idea, but no one has yet and there are plenty of nations with nuclear capabilities that have similar situations and never use them. I hope I am not wrong there :/

How exactly does the international community step in after a day of war between Israel and its neighboring countries? I don't see a lot of appetite for that, or capacity in many cases. While Israel has a very formidable military, their opponents would have a lot of capacity to do damage to Israel very quickly. Just take Hezbollah's 10,000 missiles and drop a good chunk of those on Israel, not to mention other nations' missile and other capabilities. The retaliation from Israel would be swift and severe undoubtedly, but with modern weapons, a full out war would be very messy very quickly, and hard to untangle and settle.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

How exactly does the international community step in after a day of war between Israel and its neighboring countries? I don't see a lot of appetite for that, or capacity in many cases. While Israel has a very formidable military, their opponents would have a lot of capacity to do damage to Israel very quickly. Just take Hezbollah's 10,000 missiles and drop a good chunk of those on Israel, not to mention other nations' missile and other capabilities. The retaliation from Israel would be swift and severe undoubtedly, but with modern weapons, a full out war would be very messy very quickly, and hard to untangle and settle.

Which is why I believe US forces in the region are the only logical threat to the Arab states who might contemplate an attack on Israel. Think of our forces in Korea, which will probably be overrun should Kim attack the south. But those are US troops, and if that mad dwarf overruns them, he won't like our response. We keep thinking about Moshe Dayan and the '67 war, well, technology has improved pretty dramatically since then. Israel might be planning to rely on satellites to give them an unambiguous heads up to a potential attack. Remember, it was satellite imagery that convinced the Saudis Hussein was planning to invade in the first Gulf war. Israel would have to respond before the attack, which means they'd be accused of "starting" the war.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

How exactly does the international community step in after a day of war between Israel and its neighboring countries? I don't see a lot of appetite for that, or capacity in many cases. While Israel has a very formidable military, their opponents would have a lot of capacity to do damage to Israel very quickly. Just take Hezbollah's 10,000 missiles and drop a good chunk of those on Israel, not to mention other nations' missile and other capabilities. The retaliation from Israel would be swift and severe undoubtedly, but with modern weapons, a full out war would be very messy very quickly, and hard to untangle and settle.

NATO had no issue bombing the crap out of Libya, they would do the same here.

I think you overinflate how effective the Arab Nations would be (jmho) but let us hope we never find out.

It won't matter anyways, America is way too arrogant to ever even contemplate leaving the area. Do it our way or we will wag our finger at you and squint our eyes!!