Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I didn't listen to the speech, or read it. So I'm not really in a position to say anything. Which,of course, won't stop me.

From CK's editorial that was just posted on WaPo, it seems as if Krauthammer has seized upon a number of phrases in which Obama stresses the importance of democratization.

Well, of course. Democratization is like energy security. Every president for the past 4 decades, regardless of political party, has paid due tribute to democratization. That wasn't what was distinctive about the Bush doctrine - which was really about prevention and unilateralism.

If Obama said anything about unilaterally taking the lead in deposing autocrats and installing democratic governments, that would be very Bush-like. And unfortunate.

But that's not what he said. You don't need to have listened to know that. So what *did* he say today?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

So what *did* he say today?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Boooooo!

I don't want to actually listen to it.

I should, though. Maybe sometime this weekend...

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

My basic problems with your side of the argument are that (1) preauthorization will never be more than ceremonial, and (2) a president acting with preauthorization will be even more difficult to constrain subsequently than one who acted without explicit authorization. As hard as it is for Congress to use its leverage against presidential adventurism, it's even harder for them to do so once they've signed off.

I can see merit in that argument, but taking Dubya in Iraq as an example, the executive just claims authorization for anything anyway. The main problem with the Congress when confronted with Dubya's mendacity (other than not calling him on it) was they did not set limits except through omission. It was of course the height of irony that the guys who fulminate most loudly about explicit vs implicit powers had no problem at all with their puppet taking an innocuous statement and using it as a fig leaf for full-on unprovoked invasion and occupation, but frankly if that's the only way Congress can assure an already demonstrably unstable administration won't use the Constitution as toilet paper, then that's what they need to do.

The Dems had no way of forcing the issue, but they should have voted en banc against the administration's rancid little plan, but they didn't have the guts to stand up against the juvenile "these colors don't run" demagoguery released against them. Then, rightly, they had no leg to stand on later on when it became obvious that the administration had deliberately lied about the threat and was just picking a random pretext to justify a PNAC plan they just wanted to do anyway.

OTOH it probably cost Hillary the presidency, so thank god for all of it.

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

One distinction is that Bush didn't campaign on the "I'd never do that" platform...Bush/Cheney, they'd have invaded Canada if it dawned on them as a bright idea, and most of us would have screamed but not been surprised. In this case, given the pre-election rhetoric, I'm surprised a few more steps weren't taken to gain acceptance.

ANOTHER missed opportunity!

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

"It will be the policy of the United States to promote reform across the region, and to support transitions to democracy." Obama

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

"It will be the policy of the United States to promote reform across the region, and to support transitions to democracy." Obama

See - that just doesn't strike me as much of a doctrine. I'm neither praising Bush nor criticizing him. I don't care if you thought he was the worst president ever or the best, but his doctrine was a clearly a "doctrine."

This . . . I dunno. I'm not criticizing just to argue. Really. I just don't see it. It looks like exactly the sort of banality that Obama needed in order to finesse his way through the situation without committing to anything in particular.

It's the sort of rhetoric that he hopes will put him (back) in favor with the "Arab Spring" crowd, but that doesn't lend itself to clear interpretation. A "policy" without an accompanying statement of how it might be implemented, where, or under which circumstances . . . that's not a policy. And it's certainly not a doctrine. That's an aspiration. Or a disposition. Or something.

Expect it to be "followed" verrrry selectively. Don't expect the U.S. to support a transition to democracy in Saudi Arabia. Or the Emirates. Or Qatar. Or even Iran for that matter.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems like realpolitik. Expect Obama to promote democracy where it serves American interests - but not necessarily anywhere else. Rhetoric like the above quote is just the sugar that helps the public swallow the cough syrup.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

of course there is alot more

it struck me as the old "making the world safe for democracy" stuff

the big news is actually the throwing of Israel under the bus

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Making the world safe for democracy has become code for use of force to initiate democratization. Obama's certainly showed himself to be willing to drop some bombs to support existing rebels, but I really really doubt he's up for Bush-style making Iraq safe for democracy. Maybe I'm wrong. **** it, y'all are going to convince me to actually spend an hour listening to that thing, aren't you.

<s>I whiffed on the Israel thing. The headlines are that he suggested using the 67 boundaries as a starting point for negotiation. That's actually throwing a bone to Israel compared to the previous administration. There must have been something else that set off the Israel lobby. Where were the "treadmarks"</s>

Scratch that last part. Total brain cramp on my part. The 1967 proposal *was* the bus.
It's too late for this stuff. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[joecct]

"It will be the policy of the United States to promote reform across the region, and to support transitions to democracy." Obama

When everyone is primarily attuned to their particular ethnic / religious group, democracy is almost impossible to achieve. The naïveté of US politicians of both parties is outstanding.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

When everyone is primarily attuned to their particular ethnic / religious group, democracy is almost impossible to achieve. The naïveté of US politicians of both parties is outstanding.

Au contraire. It's quite savvy - saying exactly what their constituencies want to hear. You think Joe the Plumber knows or cares about the complexity of Middle East social demographics?

As Alan Jackson put it:

"I'm just a singer of simple songs
I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
the difference in Iraq and Iran"

I think that goes for most of the country...

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

When everyone is primarily attuned to their particular ethnic / religious group, democracy is almost impossible to achieve. The naïveté of US politicians of both parties is outstanding.

It's also dangerous. We'll know whether it reflects naivete in the coming months, as things play out.

So far, we just have evidence of two things:
1. Obama will not send in U.S. forces to prop up an autocrat.
2. Obama will use democracy talk for political cover when opportunistically trying to take out strongmen who aren't friendly to the U.S.

If it starts looking like he actually believes his rhetoric, as the previous administration did, then buckle up. We're in for a bumpy ride.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

of course there is alot more

it struck me as the old "making the world safe for democracy" stuff

the big news is actually the throwing of Israel under the bus

You mean the bus that is Obama re-affirming 20+ year old United States' policy?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

the big news is actually the throwing of Israel under the bus

That's "news" if you get your news from the Washington Times. The 1967 borders have been the working basis of negotiations by everyone, including Israel, for the last 20 years. The EU, UN, and Israeli center explicitly recognized that a long time ago. The US never did before because they were afraid if they told the truth AIPAC would kill them for "weakening their bargaining position," but other than Likud every Israeli also knows this is where it's going to wind up.

The far right in Israel loves to pretend it's the only valid Israeli voice, but that's no more true there than it was here during the worst days of the mid-00's. This was just a public statement that the US is going to back the moderate voices on both sides and let the radicals on both sides (who don't really ever want peace) go their own way. It's exactly what Carter, Reagan, Bush Senior and Clinton said. The weird anomaly was the period during which AEI's most rabid theoreticians were actually setting US policy, and those days are happily long gone now.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Hell, here's Bush in 2002.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gwbushtwostatesolution.htm

Ultimately, Israelis and Palestinians must address the core issues that divide them if there is to be a real peace, resolving all claims and ending the conflict between them. This means that the Israeli occupation that began in 1967 will be ended through a settlement negotiated between the parties, based on U.N. Resolutions 242 and 338, with Israeli withdrawal to secure and recognize borders.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

At some point someone is going to have to convince the Palestinians that they can't always have everything they want in negotiations. Israel have made a number of moves, with nothing to show for it but more enemies closer on more sides. If we were dealing with people who were reasonable and rational, I'd say that 1967 borders could work, for the most part. But, this is the Middle East. Really, nothing new is going to happen. Israel will offer some concessions, but not everything the Palestinians want. Israel will then get clobbered by most of the world for being inflexible. And the Palestinians will fail to negotiate in good faith but walk away with another PR victory.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

At some point someone is going to have to convince the Palestinians that they can't always have everything they want in negotiations. Israel have made a number of moves, with nothing to show for it but more enemies closer on more sides. If we were dealing with people who were reasonable and rational, I'd say that 1967 borders could work, for the most part. But, this is the Middle East. Really, nothing new is going to happen. Israel will offer some concessions, but not everything the Palestinians want. Israel will then get clobbered by most of the world for being inflexible. And the Palestinians will fail to negotiate in good faith but walk away with another PR victory.

You do realize that the reverse of this is verbatim the way the other side feels about it, right? I actually thought that's where you were going with it -- to say both sides are completely blind, completely inflexible, and completely sure of their own position.

That doesn't in and of itself mean the sides are equivalent of course -- but it's really striking that those are exactly the same words the Palestinians talk about when they marvel at the Israelis' lack of flexibility and good faith. Maybe it's what always happens when two sides are just locked in.

I can't imagine this ends well for anyone. In fact, as you alluded to, I can't imagine it ends.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

You do realize that the reverse of this is verbatim the way the other side feels about it, right? I actually thought that's where you were going with it -- to say both sides are completely blind, completely inflexible, and completely sure of their own position.

That doesn't in and of itself mean the sides are equivalent of course -- but it's really striking that those are exactly the same words the Palestinians talk about when they marvel at the Israelis' lack of flexibility and good faith. Maybe it's what always happens when two sides are just locked in.

I can't imagine this ends well for anyone. In fact, as you alluded to, I can't imagine it ends.

Sure, it probably is largely what the Palestinians would say in return. But, I'd say, IMHO, they are less realistic about what has actually gone on than Israel is (not that Israel hasn't made some bad moves at times). I just don't see anything substantive the Palestinians have ever given, other than possible a temporary ceasefire from lobbing missiles and sending suicide bombers into Israel. But, compared to steps Israel has taken, from pulling out of Gaza, pulling out of most of the West Bank, pulling out of southern Lebanon, etc., I just don't see how a balanced perspective could think Israel hasn't moved a lot more than the Palestinians have, to date.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I just don't see how a balanced perspective could think Israel hasn't moved a lot more than the Palestinians have, to date.

Replace Isreal with the DNC, and Palestinians with the GOP, and that statement would still be right.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

The weird anomaly was the period during which AEI's most rabid theoreticians were actually setting US policy, and those days are happily long gone now.

Yeah, now it's set by AIPAC.