Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

[sagard]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Don't know that I speak for everyone...but from a so called 'liberal point of view...

We're kind of tired of taking a cooperative point of view and getting pushed around. The majority of liberals including presidents (Obama and Clinton) as well as the Washington establishment are mostly fine with tiny changes and sticking with the status quo. There is a classical form of combatting recessions by getting national revenues up by forcing money through the economy when the private sector won't spend. Obama has been trying this. A moderate approach in tough times. Conservatives come in and need to change everything...they talk a bit about shrinking spending (we'll see about that)...and in the end, push a social conservative agenda. GOP candidates seem to have no problem throwing out big pieces of the Constitution. And Conservative voters say 'I don't really believe in some of these things' but in the end, it never matters how extreme GOP platforms are. Unlike quick left criticisms of Obama, Conservatives end up following the GOP blindly no matter how extreme in the end anyways.

And the methods are different. There are very few times that Dems have said no way to cooperation...the Repubs do it all the time. The debt was a classic example. Dems were just looking for a solution. Republicans were prepared to let the whole thing crash and burn. Typical negotiation tactics...but the country is continously on the block. To that end, if there's talk of cheating electronic machines...Conservatives don't seem to reallly care. It gives off the opinion that cheating is just fine if its in favor of 'their' team.

Liberal 'media' may have a slanted pov (which I and others really don't see) but its more subtle and argues from a logic point of view. Conservative media always jacks up the rhetoric and makes it strictly opinion and much more unabashed. For every pundit on the left (who gets little attention), there are 3 on the right that are screaming that Dems are socialist (which when asked to explain, they retreat). It has moved 'the enemy' to be Americans...whoever they disagree with.

So in the end, some of us play defense...or the country takes 5 steps backwards rather than just 3. And even a post like this never gets a serious response from the righties on the board (or if it does it avoids all these issues).

You need to search and replace "Conservative" with "Republican". They are not the same thing.

Most conservative arguments are winners, too bad neither party represents conservatives.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

You need to search and replace "Conservative" with "Republican". They are not the same thing.

Most conservative arguments are winners, too bad neither party represents conservatives.

I get that and that point has some merit, because true traditional conservatism has serious merits. Yet here's why I don't know that its correct to go as far as you say....

1) These days, conservatives rarely are strictly for fiscal traditional views regardless of what they say. One could point to Bush. But more importantly, we don't have 5 Ron Pauls (who strictly talk the fiscal line) as GOP candidates...and in the best position to win the GOP nomination. That's for a reason. In fact, not only is Ron Paul not capable of winning the nomination...but he's even backsliding to social conservative views. So long story short, today's conservatives are absolutely social conservatives first and fiscal conservatives typically just because it sells the mainstream.

2) Most conservative arguments are not necessarily winners everywhere and all the time. They were absolutely winners in 2005 as the country needed little govt spending...and could let the private sector go to town. Today, the private sector does not spend and does not hire. We'll see if the private sector hires and spends to make up for upcoming huge govt drops in both...I sincerely doubt it. Likewise in some states like Minnesota, govt spending is done extemely effectively. It also seems extremely unlikely that some other state govt/private sector model could be more successful (based on the macroeconomic situation) than our higher quality of living, higher state taxation model today.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

You need to search and replace "Conservative" with "Republican". They are not the same thing.

Most conservative arguments are winners, too bad neither party represents conservatives.

Most? Not hardly. Social being half of the argument scale means that 50% of conservative arguments are hogwash.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I alternate between thinking a third party could exist and thinking that the two entrenched parties will never let that happen. If it did, I would hope it (if there were only one) would try to find the best aspects of the middle and pull in people who are rational and understand that there has to be some middle ground and that won't happen if the more vocal/powerful sides of BOTH parties have to be placated.

Interesting that a few of the posts do seem to imply that the word conservative simultaneously applies to fiscal and social beliefs and others make the distinction. That is good work on the part of the democrats, working to ensure the term applies to both in many people's minds and indicates the republicans haven't/aren't able to distance themselves, perception wise, from their more intolerant members (if they want to).

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

There are lots of definitions of "conservative," but the traditional Burkian conservatism hasn't been seen in this hemisphere for fifty years. Social conservatism rings the right's chimes MUCH more loudly than fiscal conservatism here -- the GOP has worked long and hard to conflate them in the public mind.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Most? Not hardly. Social being half of the argument scale means that 50% of conservative arguments are hogwash.

I don't believe social issues are on equal footing with economic ones either in number or in significance; the latter have an effect on ALL OF US while the former only directly impact you under a limited number of circumstances. Interest rates (related to the country's economic health) help determine what you can afford to borrow and also dictate what you're paid for your savings. Tax policy determines not only what the government can afford to do but also can have a significant impact on your take home pay. Call me selfish, but these things matter a hell of a lot more to me than gay marriage, abortion, or any other bull**** social issue EVER will.

As far as a viable third party is concerned, I believe it is a pipe dream. Both major parties have strong incentives to quash the formation of one since votes are inevitably taken disproportionately from one of the two parties in elections featuring strong third party candidates (Perot killed Bush's re-election chances in 1992; Nader opened the door for W to walk through in 2000).

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I don't believe social issues are on equal footing with economic ones either in number or in significance.

I'll repeat this again. Steve King (R.-Ia.) is the perfect representative for his Congressional district. And there are plenty of other areas out there like that one.

Running a campaign based solely on abortion/teh gayz/family values/evangelicalism probably won't win you a national election, but it can definitely win a local one, and it can take you most of the way to getting a nomination for a national job.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I don't believe social issues are on equal footing with economic ones either in number or in significance; the latter have an effect on ALL OF US while the former only directly impact you under a limited number of circumstances. Interest rates (related to the country's economic health) help determine what you can afford to borrow and also dictate what you're paid for your savings. Tax policy determines not only what the government can afford to do but also can have a significant impact on your take home pay. Call me selfish, but these things matter a hell of a lot more to me than gay marriage, abortion, or any other bull**** social issue EVER will.

You don't? Good for you. Then why does every fiscal bill have a social rider in it that has to be cleaned up?

There are lots of definitions of "conservative," but the traditional Burkian conservatism hasn't been seen in this hemisphere for fifty years. Social conservatism rings the right's chimes MUCH more loudly than fiscal conservatism here -- the GOP has worked long and hard to conflate them in the public mind.

Correct.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Bakunin, that means you come from the relatively small subsection of the electorate that doesn't equate their political preferences with ethics*. Most humans believe everything they prefer is GOOD and therefore the opposite must be EVIL, despite the fact that our political preferences are mostly determined by our social status, education and religion, which in turn are mostly determined by who are parents were and where we were raised.

Stand up in a political debate and announce you don't believe in the Free Market. You'll get some boos. Then announce you don't believe in God. You'll be lynched.

* Then again, Utilitarianism is itself an ethical perspective, and it's just as much a product of environmental pressures. The odds are pretty good that we're just wind-up toys, even though it feels like we have good reasons for everything we believe. I have of course come to this conclusion through deliberate, volitional reasoning and am not in any way just a product of the late 20th century northeastern liberal intellectual conveyer belt.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I'll repeat this again. Steve King (R.-Ia.) is the perfect representative for his Congressional district. And there are plenty of other areas out there like that one.

To be clear, I wasn't making a comment about how important social issues are to Congressional elections or social climbing in our political parties. I was making a personal statement as to how they rate with me - and how they *should* rate with other people - provided they acted purely on self interest and didn't feel the need to micromanage other people's personal lives. In baseball, the tie goes to the runner. When it comes to political stances, if an issue has no bearing on me whatsoever, I consider it a "tie" and favor whichever side means greater individual liberty - hence I support gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion rights, and legalized pot.

If you looked at the sum total of my economic thoughts, you'd probably label me "conservative". Yet looking at the above, you'd have a difficult time calling me one, would you not? Amusingly, the last time I took a test to pin me down politically, I was classified as 'left-libertarian'.

And scooby, social riders are put there because we have loony representatives in Congress who feel as though they have a special calling to trumpet those things at all times. To say it's aggravating is an understatement.

Oh, and Kepler, I would be lynched in that scenario. I'm philosophically agnostic/practically atheist.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

To be clear, I wasn't making a comment about how important social issues are to Congressional elections or social climbing in our political parties. I was making a personal statement as to how they rate with me - and how they *should* rate with other people - provided they acted purely on self interest and didn't feel the need to micromanage other people's personal lives. In baseball, the tie goes to the runner. When it comes to political stances, if an issue has no bearing on me whatsoever, I consider it a "tie" and favor whichever side means greater individual liberty - hence I support gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion rights, and legalized pot.

If you looked at the sum total of my economic thoughts, you'd probably label me "conservative". Yet looking at the above, you'd have a difficult time calling me one, would you not? Amusingly, the last time I took a test to pin me down politically, I was classified as 'left-libertarian'.

And scooby, social riders are put there because we have loony representatives in Congress who feel as though they have a special calling to trumpet those things at all times.

"If you believe you are right you have a moral obligation to impose your will upon others." -- Tomas de Torquemada, Grand Inquisitor

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

If you looked at the sum total of my economic thoughts, you'd probably label me "conservative". Yet looking at the above, you'd have a difficult time calling me one, would you not?

It makes you a textbook Libertarian. Until recently Libertarians have tended to hold their nose and vote GOP but this may be changing in the wake of the GOP's embrace of foreign intervention and the surveillance state. Also, the national Libertarian movement used to have a sort of rump social conservative activist wing (witness Ron Paul's opposite to abortion), but those guys are getting pulled over to the Tea Party. The remainder of the national party is less identified with Christian issues and may be, like the Randians, actively hostile to religion.

I'd say half the white males with college degrees in business or the sciences I have met are Libertarians. It's a very appealing "starter" orientation.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

You know, the pace these days is so fast it's sometimes hard to keep up. I'm trying to remember the reaction around here a couple of weeks ago when MSNBC edited some tape of Rick Perry talking about the "dark cloud of debt," leaving out the word "debt" to make it plausible for cheap shot artists like "Big Ed" and "The Rev" to accuse Perry of "racisim."

Now many of the ladies of the libtard chorale have been in high dudgeon about the way Fox edited the Hoffa tape. But I don't recall any outrage at MSNBC for its creative editing. I wonder why that is? As a general rule, I don't watch either, so I can't comment. But if the ladies are right, it sounds like Fox crossed the line, as did MSNBC. But, as usual, the outrage is selective. Very selective.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

Oh, and Kepler, I would be lynched in that scenario. I'm philosophically agnostic/practically atheist.

You'd be smart enough to keep your mouth shut. It's the high school nerd effect -- if you're smart enough to attract the jocks' anger, you should be smart enough to mask it.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

It makes you a textbook Libertarian. Until recently Libertarians have tended to hold their nose and vote GOP but this may be changing in the wake of the GOP's embrace of foreign intervention and the surveillance state. Also, the national Libertarian movement used to have a sort of rump social conservative activist wing (witness Ron Paul's opposite to abortion), but those guys are getting pulled over to the Tea Party.

2002 was the last time I voted. It's almost as if something happened in '03 that turned me against the powers-that-be. Hmmm, I wonder what that could have been?

Of course, the civic-minded types would tell me it's my "duty" to vote, but I disagree. If I feel there is no valid option and that no minor candidate/party has any shot whatsoever, there simply is no point in participating. My suburban district will vote solidly R in every Congressional election, my state will vote solidly D in every presidential election, and neither of those things is likely to change in my lifetime.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

You know, the pace these days is so fast it's sometimes hard to keep up. I'm trying to remember the reaction around here a couple of weeks ago when MSNBC edited some tape of Rick Perry talking about the "dark cloud of debt," leaving out the word "debt" to make it plausible for cheap shot artists like "Big Ed" and "The Rev" to accuse Perry of "racisim."

Now many of the ladies of the libtard chorale have been in high dudgeon about the way Fox edited the Hoffa tape. But I don't recall any outrage at MSNBC for its creative editing. I wonder why that is? As a general rule, I don't watch either, so I can't comment. But if the ladies are right, it sounds like Fox crossed the line, as did MSNBC. But, as usual, the outrage is selective. Very selective.

And to my old friend 5MM, who says he can't see any evidence of MSM left wing bias, let me just select one example at random. How 'bout Dan Rather trying to change the outcome of a presidential election by using forged documents (which he claimed was irrelevant) after his producer had been in contact with the Kerry campaign? Sounds a little tilted to me. But not to you?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

2002 was the last time I voted. It's almost as if something happened in '03 that turned me against the powers-that-be. Hmmm, I wonder what that could have been?

Of course, the civic-minded types would tell me it's my "duty" to vote, but I disagree. If I feel there is no valid option and that no minor candidate/party has any shot whatsoever, there simply is no point in participating. My suburban district will vote solidly R in every Congressional election, my state will vote solidly D in every presidential election, and neither of those things is likely to change in my lifetime.

I agree. GOTV public service announcements give me a rash. Personally, I would be in favor of a system where I'm the only one who votes. It would greatly simplify things.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

I'm sure the same people who jumped all over Hoffa's comments will also jump all over these comments:

KOCH: But we've been talking about --- we have Saddam Hussein, this is the Mother of All Wars we've got in the next 18 months. For the life or death of this country. So, I'm not going to do this to put any pressure on anyone here, mind you. This is not pressure. But if this makes your heart feel glad and you want to be more forthcoming, then so be it.

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Right?

 

[sagard]

Re: Obama XXI: Kenyan Muslins are ruining this country!

..But I don't recall any outrage at MSNBC for its creative editing...

How can there ever be any outrage with MSNBC when only twenty six people (relatives) watch it? They can say anything they want, nobody is listening or cares what they have to say. Fox has a large passionate audience.