Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

In my eyes, the only reason to justify vouchers at all is to say that private school attendees relieve some of the burden required to run a public school (by virtue of needing to teach fewer kids). Other than that? It's their choice. Would we encourage vouchers for people who have private security just because they might not need police protection?

I don't have the numbers for Milwaukee, but I do for DC. Found here. In DC, it costs, using a modest estimate, $17,000 or so to educate a pupil. A voucher for $7500 thus relieves the system of close to a $10,000 burden. So I think you could make a decent argument that they actually save money over the long run.

It's totally a personal choice, but I wouldn't equate with the personal choice to say, purchase a new Porsche. A poor education can consign a kid to some pretty terrible outcomes, and I totally support families taking the opportunities to get their kids a better one.

Going back to the DC example, a high school graduate saves the city over $100,000. I think that's a pretty darn good ROI for taxpayers.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Of course Junior already attends private school. Mix with the great unwashed? Ewww. Now taxpayers (the great unwashed) can pay for Junior to go to private school. Or do you think they won't bother to apply for a voucher? I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you...

Oh, they might apply, but a smart government (does that exist?) can also set up a system in which the administrator takes one look at such an application, chuckles heartily, and throws it in the trash.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Oh, they might apply, but a smart government (does that exist?) can also set up a system in which the administrator takes one look at such an application, chuckles heartily, and throws it in the trash.

Hahahhhaha
A smart government that will reject a voucher for Junior?

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry. That was funny.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:375724" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-28-2011/crisis-in-dairyland---message-for-teachers">The Daily Show - Crisis in Dairyland - Message for Teachers</a></b><br/>Tags: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I don't have the numbers for Milwaukee, but I do for DC. Found here. In DC, it costs, using a modest estimate, $17,000 or so to educate a pupil. A voucher for $7500 thus relieves the system of close to a $10,000 burden. So I think you could make a decent argument that they actually save money over the long run.

That's true if that student wouldn't go to private school without the voucher. Other wise the taxpayers are just forking over extra $$$$$.

I thought Bill Gates did a credible job talking about k-12 education on cspan ... he mostly talked about measuring teacher performance. To find the best teachers from objective/subjective measurements and use these teachers as a basic standard to improve education. And to reward performance based on this measurement.

Since his foundation from various study found that longevity, high salary and higher educated (masters/phd) teachers didn't equate to better performing students. And most of the teacher pay is based on longevity (40%)and education level (20%) with base starting salary (40%).

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

That's true if that student wouldn't go to private school without the voucher. Other wise the taxpayers are just forking over extra $$$$$.

Is it? I don't think I follow your math. The way I interpret it, if a kid stays in public school, the school will spend $17,000 to educate him. If he goes to a voucher school, I assume the school thus isn't spending that $17,000 on him.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

That's good because science, technology, engineering and mathematics aren't very important.

We don't need those things, everything we need to know is found in one book.
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[Tundra]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Is it? I don't think I follow your math. The way I interpret it, if a kid stays in public school, the school will spend $17,000 to educate him. If he goes to a voucher school, I assume the school thus isn't spending that $17,000 on him.

Correct. so these $0 students will turn into $7000 vouchers for taxpayers. it's simple logic and math. those people who NEED the $7000 voucher to send their kids to private school is a small percentage. Rest can/cant afford it regardless of the voucher.

I think Bill Gates foundation found that private school k-12 was a mix bag. some private schools did extremely well for the students, and others did worst than public schools.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2011/02/bill_gates_talks_about_teacher.html

Most of the new money pumped into public education has been spent on new teachers. For every 1,000 students, public schools employ 125 adults, an 8-to-1 ratio, comparable to the student-faculty ratio at Swarthmore College.

The number of instructors per 1,000 students has more than doubled since 1960, from 40 to 85.

Over the years, though, the research community has more or less confirmed that class-size reduction doesn't yield significant performance gains. The most expensive education reform is among the least effective.

Gates proposes ending class-size reduction experiments, lifting caps on class size and offering good teachers financial incentives to teach more students.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Hahahhhaha
A smart government that will reject a voucher for Junior?

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry. That was funny.

Boy, I don't know if you like where this argument is headed. You argue that the government isn't smart enough to weed out well-off families from a voucher program. Okay fine. Yet I'm sure you feel like that same government is totally capable of administrating, say, a health care program?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Correct. so these $0 students will turn into $7000 vouchers for taxpayers. it's simple logic and math. those people who NEED the $7000 voucher to send their kids to private school is a small percentage. Rest can/cant afford it regardless of the voucher.

I see what you're saying I guess, but I take issue with the idea that these students are currently $0 students for taxpayers. Who do you think is footing that $17,000 bill at present?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Walker's proposal caps the cost-per-pupil at around $10,000 or so, so that's the baseline if we wanted to stick with what's going on in Walkerland.

Let's suppose, just to choose numbers, that a voucher in Wisconsin averages at $6,000 in value. In theory, one might say, that's a $4,000 savings over the cost of education per child. However, as Tundra noted, a rather sizable chunk of private school kids are going to private schools anyway- so that's just a $6,000 handout for every child that meets that description.

I'm rhetorically against vouchers, but I can accept it on an as-needed basis because when you exclude the wealthy-enough-to-go-private-anyway kids, there probably is a cost savings for the district/state. Walker's proposal makes no such exclusion, which makes me feel like its just another upper-class handout. It's pretty clear that Walker's a "trickle down theory" kind of guy (and that's the nice way to say it).

Plus, I would argue that the "cost per child" metric is a little inaccurate. How many education related expenses are truly on a cost-per-child basis? There's something to be said for buying in bulk. Suppose you took every private school kid and had them go to public schools. Is the average cost really still at $10,000 per kid or does it go down?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Before I get too upset about this aspect of the bill, I'd like to hear someone explain what exactly getting a teacher's license requires. I don't think the med school analogy is a great comparison in terms of the work above a bachelor's degree required.

I'm sure some people will be along to yell at me and tell me just how wrong I am, but isn't that licensing requirement just another possible barrier to hiring good teachers? Besides, it's not like that opens things up for charter schools to hire any idiot off the street, I'm sure the interview and vetting process will remain the same.

Edit: Thinking about it, is that all that much different in function than Teach For America? The people accepted into that program don't have the traditional certification either. Although from what I understand they do wind up taking some sort of certification program once accepted.

What goes into getting a teaching license depends on the rules the state board puts in place. Here in Minnesota it is a two year (depending on the college it could be more, plus different licenses take longer) post bachelor program that is part of a Masters Degree program. (in Minnesota you have 7 years from licensure to finish your Masters) Plus you need to take a boatload of tests to be certified. (Basic skills, Praxis, Pedagogy and Content all of which cost about $80 per)

It is difficult and it is not cheap...I am going to be in debt until basically I retire

edit: I know some Charter schools in Minneapolis allow you to sub with just a BA not sure about teaching though.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

We don't need those things, everything we need to know is found in one book.
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That made me want to cry...

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I see what you're saying I guess, but I take issue with the idea that these students are currently $0 students for taxpayers. Who do you think is footing that $17,000 bill at present?

I'm just pointing out the cost from subsidizing the wealthy private students vs the possible potential savings from less enrollment. And only way to get these savings ($10,000) is if you deduct the voucher program from the education budget.

After fannie/freddi/pell GSE, bank bailout and TSA turning a minimum wage job into high paid career. I have to agree with the republicans and say no more subsidy/voucher/GSE/government takeover for anything. including housing/medical/education. I think we should eliminate SS/medicaid/care/education department... throw in TSA/homeland with less than useful protection too.

I can understand why the teachers don't want to change to performance since every government pay is based on longevity and education level.

look at our police/fire etc ... the starting wage is $17/hr (maybe $22) for police but after automatic raises every year they will be making close to $100,000/yr after 20years with 50% pension and full medical/dental coverage. Plus automatic raise for college degree , masters and phd regardless of performance.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Yet again, it's seizing upon an utterly worst case scenario as a means for deriding the program as a whole.

That's easily countered. Since Medicare costs us billions per year in fraudulent claims, clearly we should get rid of the program altogether.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

We don't need those things, everything we need to know is found in one book.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jNGGNomLx_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Please tell me this was a dress rehersal for Senior Follies. Where's L. Ron Hubbard when you really need him?

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I see what you're saying I guess, but I take issue with the idea that these students are currently $0 students for taxpayers. Who do you think is footing that $17,000 bill at present?

I don't think you see what he is saying at all. He is saying that a kid that already would have gone to a private school and cost taxpayers $0 now costs $7000 because they get a voucher.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

We don't need those things, everything we need to know is found in one book.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jNGGNomLx_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

that is sad

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Hahahhhaha
A smart government that will reject a voucher for Junior?

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry. That was funny.

I though the gov't was all knowing and all seeing, I'm devastated thats not actually true even in a believer who thinks the more gov't you have the better

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

What goes into getting a teaching license depends on the rules the state board puts in place. Here in Minnesota it is a two year (depending on the college it could be more, plus different licenses take longer) post bachelor program that is part of a Masters Degree program. (in Minnesota you have 7 years from licensure to finish your Masters) Plus you need to take a boatload of tests to be certified. (Basic skills, Praxis, Pedagogy and Content all of which cost about $80 per)

It is difficult and it is not cheap...I am going to be in debt until basically I retire




edit: I know some Charter schools in Minneapolis allow you to sub with just a BA not sure about teaching though.

My first thought after reading ths was "Why?". Why do they need masters degrees etc? Most are teaching 11 year old kids not grad students. I'm willing to get a lot of flak on this one but I would suggest that the first thing a teacher needs is the ability to teach kids things and the passion to do it, not an advanced degree. Running them all through grad school (and I know they do a bunch of field work) would seem to produce people at the end who can handle more years of school vs. great teachers. And frankly, I think I could determine if somebody had the ability to teach in a 30 minute interview, not by reviewing their grad school transcript.

My guess is that in 1950 the teachers weren't required to have master's degrees. When did this practice come about? How has our education system done since then? Our superintendents are all Phd's yet the students they produce can't read. Teachers have master's degrees yet we have to import a large % of our developers and doctors.

We can all argue about this and that, we are what our record says we are.

I don't blame the teachers, I know some aren't great but they are the product of the system that develops and cares for them. That system, run by a bunch of theorists, has been going sideways for decades and they keep offering more band-aid programs and federal funding. The theory is wrong.

The "school shouldn't be demanding, it should build self-esteem, tests aren't fair, you can't make them learn, whole language, nobody should fail" mentality is wrong.

Self-esteem should be the end result, not the goal of every day. It is velcro sneakers and participation medals for education. And it is failing.