Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Where is elsewhere though? Budgets are being slashed around the country, by both Republicans and Democrats. It's fine to say that the plan will make teachers decide to leave, but where are they going to go? The two obvious contenders nearby, Minnesota and Illinois, are both facing big deficits as well, with the day of reckoning having to come at some point.

Minnesota is going to end up freezing wages to "fix" the problem. If they get stupid and don't do that then expect layoffs for the next couple years and budgets get worse and worse.

And once again WWM, the unions (supposedly) agreed to the pension fix that Walker said he wanted. They are making the concessions he asked to try and balance the budget all they want is the right to negotiate at a later date. Why exactly is that so wrong and why wont Walker accept that?

The rest of the argument doesnt matter. He wants them to contribute more, they said they would. This argument should have been over with a week ago but for some reason he feels the need to throw CB in there too. Why should they give that up if they are giving him everything else that he wanted? Would you?

 

[XYZ]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Minnesota is going to end up freezing wages to "fix" the problem. If they get stupid and don't do that then expect layoffs for the next couple years and budgets get worse and worse.

You really think Dayton will go that route? I'll believe it when I see it, but if so it'll be gasket blowing time for many of my MAPE cohorts here at work.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

You really think Dayton will go that route? I'll believe it when I see it, but if so it'll be gasket blowing time for many of my MAPE cohorts here at work.

That seems to be the prevailing wisdom from what I have been told. I don't think he will like it, and yes he will take heat over it but he has no choice. Even if they freeze education spending costs are still going to go up meaning budgets are worse and programs/teachers will be laid off. He will take way more heat over that in the long run than any short term reaction he will get over a freeze.

Let me put it another way, if he has any designs of a second term he will freeze wages and let things settle down for a year. If he doesnt and hundreds of teachers end up out of work he will be toast.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I don't know anything about the railroads in WI, but the argument that someone else will/would have/might do something "anyway" is never a defense of doing something immoral. If you support it, find another argument for it besides "someone else will spend it anyway, might as well be us."

Yes, I can't stand this argument. So what if he threw away stimulus money? Usually that money comes with strings about putting up your own to match it. And when it's something you don't really want anyways, why would you accept the money? Maybe, just maybe there is a chance that no one will spend it and it will go back to the tax payers (pipe dream, I know )

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

What does that last bit mean? Pick a salary - any salary - and people who can make more money elsewhere will do so. The talent of the teaching pool will always be subject to market forces.

Teacher wages are subsidized today...so it means just what we have today. Its not that complicated.

Meanwhile your position is...pay them wages strictly determined by the labor markets regardless of what that means? Even if it means needing to crank up the green cards to bring in Hispanics to teach your children?

Degrading education will have huge negative consequences in every profession from straight productivity/prosperity to national competitiveness to tax revenue and the deficit. I am constantly surprised how people have a tendency to gravitate to 'what's fair' rather than what will benefit the country. And also that the approach should be determined by the means (a capitalist mechanism) rather than the end (investment for a more successful future for the country).

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Right, but $1 million to the RGA (to be spread over a whole host of competitive governors races) is still a pittance. Especially because there's an equal organization, the DGA, also receiving and spending money. Even assuming the whole $1million went to Walker (and that would be silly, because it didn't) it's still a lesser % of money than unions gave to Democrats.

Since the second block quote doesn't give numbers, it's tough to really address. Yes, they ran ads for a spending crisis that ran in Wisconsin, but those ads also benefited Ron Johnson, the Republicans in contested House races, local races, and so on.

I'm not exactly sure about what the point of any of this is. There's money spent in politics- are you surprised?

Access. You try calling up Scott Walker and see if he spends as much time talking to you as he did the alleged Koch brother who called him.

I doubt you get past the switchboard.

(608) 266-1212

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

And once again WWM, the unions (supposedly) agreed to the pension fix that Walker said he wanted. They are making the concessions he asked to try and balance the budget all they want is the right to negotiate at a later date. Why exactly is that so wrong and why wont Walker accept that?

The rest of the argument doesnt matter. He wants them to contribute more, they said they would. This argument should have been over with a week ago but for some reason he feels the need to throw CB in there too. Why should they give that up if they are giving him everything else that he wanted? Would you?

Excellent rant

If it were me, yeah I would have taken the concessions and been done with it. I also understand Walker's point though (to an extent). If he says we need A+B+C to balance the budget, why would he be content with only A+B if he's convinced he needs C as well?

At any rate, that's not really the point though, at least not in the context amherst was talking about. He was saying (unless I misunderstood) that just the pension contribution element of the bill (the part the unions have already agreed to) would have a negative effect on attracting teachers. I don't think that's the case.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Access. You try calling up Scott Walker and see if he spends as much time talking to you as he did the alleged Koch brother who called him.

I doubt you get past the switchboard.

(608) 266-1212

Again, I'm not sure what exactly the point of that is. Call up President Obama, I doubt you're getting through there either, unless he knows you.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

In further Wisconsin news, Rep. Gordon Hintz is having a rough couple of weeks.

An Oshkosh Assemblyman issued a second public apology in as many weeks Monday, the latest for comments he made on the floor of the Assembly following a vote on a contentious budget repair bill.

Rep. Gordon Hintz, D-Oshkosh, called Rep. Michelle Litjens, R-Winneconne, Monday morning to apologize for his comments that Litjens described as containing an obscenity and the words “you’re dead.” Last week, he accepted responsibility for being issued an ordinance violation for visiting a massage parlor in Appleton that was the subject of a prostitution sting.

Edit: And now there's "buzz" that a deal may have been hammered out, either to change the bill or get some of the Senators to come back to Wisconsin, and they could be back today before 5.

Or you know, they couldn't.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Excellent rant

If it were me, yeah I would have taken the concessions and been done with it. I also understand Walker's point though (to an extent). If he says we need A+B+C to balance the budget, why would he be content with only A+B if he's convinced he needs C as well?

At any rate, that's not really the point though, at least not in the context amherst was talking about. He was saying (unless I misunderstood) that just the pension contribution element of the bill (the part the unions have already agreed to) would have a negative effect on attracting teachers. I don't think that's the case.

IIRC the argument was that if the unions can still collectively bargain, what is to stop this from happening again during their next contract. The unions will threaten strike unless they get A, B, and C which will eventually get back to where they are today. And stupidly the government will cave because they don't really have any other options. The government is trying to create that new option with this by giving control to the local areas and not allowing the unions to control it anymore.

That's my understanding of why bargaining is such a big deal. Anyone know/heard different?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

IIRC the argument was that if the unions can still collectively bargain, what is to stop this from happening again during their next contract. The unions will threaten strike unless they get A, B, and C which will eventually get back to where they are today. And stupidly the government will cave because they don't really have any other options. The government is trying to create that new option with this by giving control to the local areas and not allowing the unions to control it anymore.

That's my understanding of why bargaining is such a big deal. Anyone know/heard different?

Yup, that's certainly Walker's argument, which is why, in my opinion, it's kind of silly to expect him to be happy with just A+B.

The counter argument seems to be that collective bargaining isn't related to the budget at all, based on the idea that those local areas you mention even with collective bargaining, still have the ability to say no,

 

[Carter]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

IIRC the argument was that if the unions can still collectively bargain, what is to stop this from happening again during their next contract. The unions will threaten strike unless they get A, B, and C which will eventually get back to where they are today. And stupidly the government will cave because they don't really have any other options. The government is trying to create that new option with this by giving control to the local areas and not allowing the unions to control it anymore.

That's my understanding of why bargaining is such a big deal. Anyone know/heard different?

I can tell you that for State and University employees, there is no such thing as a strike. It's illegal, and has been for years and years. It's actually pretty funny hearing people talk about the powerful public employee unions. Teachers, very much so, but the rest of the unions have very little power at all. The employees have been losing money to the cost of living for years now. Really scary power.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

At the same time, UW academic employees just got the ability to collectively bargain in 2009. Are you really saying it will be some huge step backward, some grievous injustice, to return to how things were just two years ago?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Again, I'm not sure what exactly the point of that is. Call up President Obama, I doubt you're getting through there either, unless he knows you.

You were pointing to the $43,000 Koch gave Walker and saying that was a minuscule amount (.5%). I'm saying they gave a whole lot more. The proof is that when one of the Koch brothers calls the governor's office he goes right through and they have a pretty long conversation. A minuscule campaign contribution doesn't buy you that kind of access, so stop pretending that he doesn't have any.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Oh, he certainly has access to Walker that run of the mill folks do not. Didn't mean to imply anything otherwise. Again though, this is hardly a situation unique to Walker, and again, it's hardly a situation like the way you initially presented it as a choice like this:

The Koch Brothers AND the state workers can't both win, so the governor is choosing the Koch brothers.

It's not between those two groups and you know it.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Oh, he certainly has access to Walker that run of the mill folks do not. Didn't mean to imply anything otherwise. Again though, this is hardly a situation unique to Walker, and again, it's hardly a situation like the way you initially presented it as a choice like this:


It's not between those two groups and you know it.

It's not? The Koch brothers stand to make a pretty penny if the unions are busted. But I suppose that's just a coincidence.

 

[Carter]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

At the same time, UW academic employees just got the ability to collectively bargain in 2009. Are you really saying it will be some huge step backward, some grievous injustice, to return to how things were just two years ago?

I don't believe they've actually formed a union at this point, but nonetheless, all workers should have the right to bargain collectively. Here's an example of the extraordinary wages paid to represented employees on campus. I have a friend who was looking for some kind of position after he sold his business, preferably one that would let him build up a retirement account. He got a job doing parking enforcement on campus, both on a daily basis and for special events parking. He's not a cop, but he is a form of law enforcement, and has to deal with all kinds of weasels during a typical day. At special events, lots of money changes hands for parking in lots all over campus. He's asked to carry 20 to 25k in uncounted bills and get it back to the safe. He's been doing this for 5 years now. Know what his astonishing salary is? $11 per hour. It's laughable that people think the rank and file are making buttloads of money. Without the benefits, who on earth would stay with a job like that?

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I don't believe they've actually formed a union at this point, but nonetheless, all workers should have the right to bargain collectively. Here's an example of the extraordinary wages paid to represented employees on campus. I have a friend who was looking for some kind of position after he sold his business, preferably one that would let him build up a retirement account. He got a job doing parking enforcement on campus, both on a daily basis and for special events parking. He's not a cop, but he is a form of law enforcement, and has to deal with all kinds of weasels during a typical day. At special events, lots of money changes hands for parking in lots all over campus. He's asked to carry 20 to 25k in uncounted bills and get it back to the safe. He's been doing this for 5 years now. Know what his astonishing salary is? $11 per hour. It's laughable that people think the rank and file are making buttloads of money. Without the benefits, who on earth would stay with a job like that?

Cstore managers do that every day of the week, some make far less than 11 bucks an hour. They get treated like crap, can be fired on a whim, have to deal with schedules and employees and have no one looking out for them. Why should law boy wannabee be any different, cause I'm paying him?

 

[Carter]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Cstore managers do that every day of the week, some make far less than 11 bucks an hour. They get treated like crap, can be fired on a whim, have to deal with schedules and employees and have no one looking out for them. Why should law boy wannabee be any different, cause I'm paying him?

I would much rather see Cstore managers (is that convenience store?) paid a living wage as well, not bring all down to the lowest common denominator. Do owners actually expect honesty from employees who are paid so little? I'm also curious as to how much those owners are making from that store. But I suppose that's nobody's business, eh?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

It's not? The Koch brothers stand to make a pretty penny if the unions are busted. But I suppose that's just a coincidence.

You know who else stands to make (or more accurately, save) a pretty penny? The taxpayers.