Kepler
Cornell Big Red
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Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
- Thread starter joecct
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Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
A typical pointless statement. In a representative democracy, such as the one we live in, the people = the government. Unlike say a monarchy or a dictatorship. If people didn't like the fundamental system of govt, they'd change it. Last time I checked, we haven't had a revolution since the Constitution was adopted. However, if you'd like to defend the country from foreign attacks yourself, test your own food and drugs, inspect the plane when you fly a commercial airline, patrol your streets, prosecute crimes, educate the populace, etc to take the place of all other govt services that you currently benefit from, be my guest.
A typical pointless statement. In a representative democracy, such as the one we live in, the people = the government. Unlike say a monarchy or a dictatorship. If people didn't like the fundamental system of govt, they'd change it. Last time I checked, we haven't had a revolution since the Constitution was adopted. However, if you'd like to defend the country from foreign attacks yourself, test your own food and drugs, inspect the plane when you fly a commercial airline, patrol your streets, prosecute crimes, educate the populace, etc to take the place of all other govt services that you currently benefit from, be my guest.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Whatever you do, get the government out of his/her Medicare.
A typical pointless statement. In a representative democracy, such as the one we live in, the people = the government. Unlike say a monarchy or a dictatorship. If people didn't like the fundamental system of govt, they'd change it. Last time I checked, we haven't had a revolution since the Constitution was adopted. However, if you'd like to defend the country from foreign attacks yourself, test your own food and drugs, inspect the plane when you fly a commercial airline, patrol your streets, prosecute crimes, educate the populace, etc to take the place of all other govt services that you currently benefit from, be my guest.
Whatever you do, get the government out of his/her Medicare.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
They're full of contradictions, amongst other things.
Seriously though, I've never understood these people who want to act like the government is an entirely separate and unaccountable entity from its citizens. This isn't the Soviet Union. Elected officials from the President to your local school board face regular tests with the voters. While money, etc can help, there are plenty of instances where the more well funded candidate or even party lost an election. I personally may not have liked some of the choices voters have made (Bush II for example) but that's who people voted for so you have to live with it and try to change it the next election. If for example Dem voters sit out the upcoming election, thus enabling GOP candidates to win even to the point of taking over Congress, then those voters who sat out have nobody to blame but themselves. Its not some monolithic entity that will start passing laws that they don't like, it'll be the people that were elected during the last vote. If taxes are the people's money, then the national debt = the people's debt. It don't get any harder to figure out than that (well, maybe if you're Red Cloud...
)
It's like saying management doesn't contribute anything and all "production" comes from the sweat of the brow. I didn't really have them pegged as backing the labor theory of value, though.
They're full of contradictions, amongst other things.
Seriously though, I've never understood these people who want to act like the government is an entirely separate and unaccountable entity from its citizens. This isn't the Soviet Union. Elected officials from the President to your local school board face regular tests with the voters. While money, etc can help, there are plenty of instances where the more well funded candidate or even party lost an election. I personally may not have liked some of the choices voters have made (Bush II for example) but that's who people voted for so you have to live with it and try to change it the next election. If for example Dem voters sit out the upcoming election, thus enabling GOP candidates to win even to the point of taking over Congress, then those voters who sat out have nobody to blame but themselves. Its not some monolithic entity that will start passing laws that they don't like, it'll be the people that were elected during the last vote. If taxes are the people's money, then the national debt = the people's debt. It don't get any harder to figure out than that (well, maybe if you're Red Cloud...
)Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
I'm stating the exact opposite. You said, don't worry the gov't will pay your doctor bills. I said, that's bull - taxpayers ARE the government. The government doesn't pay for anything. They don't create funds out of thin air.They're full of contradictions, amongst other things.
Seriously though, I've never understood these people who want to act like the government is an entirely separate and unaccountable entity from its citizens.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
That's not the same as being unproductive or counter-productive, however. It has a set of useful functions -- emphasis on *use*ful. The argument is about which functions under what circumstances. But "gummint is bad" fits on a bumper sticker.
That's not the same as being unproductive or counter-productive, however. It has a set of useful functions -- emphasis on *use*ful. The argument is about which functions under what circumstances. But "gummint is bad" fits on a bumper sticker.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
What are you going to cut? How much do you want to pay. What service are you going to get rid of? What "unintended consequences" are you willing to live with once you make those cuts, whatever they may be?
True story from our local school district:
The school board came to the parents for funding. A levy. The levy was rejected and heavily campaigned against by a group of people.. So, the school board cut bus funding. In our school district everyone had been getting bussed for free regardless of distance. State law says if you live within 2 miles of the school you have to walk. School district cut it and said if you live within 2 miles you have to pay to get a bus.
What happened?
The group of people who campaigned against the levy the hardest also screamed the loudest about having to pay for the bus.
So, again. What are you going to cut. And what unintended consequences are YOU willing to live with. Should be easy for you since you seem to be implying that you do not benefit from your tax dollars.
What are you going to cut? How much do you want to pay. What service are you going to get rid of? What "unintended consequences" are you willing to live with once you make those cuts, whatever they may be?
True story from our local school district:
The school board came to the parents for funding. A levy. The levy was rejected and heavily campaigned against by a group of people.. So, the school board cut bus funding. In our school district everyone had been getting bussed for free regardless of distance. State law says if you live within 2 miles of the school you have to walk. School district cut it and said if you live within 2 miles you have to pay to get a bus.
What happened?
The group of people who campaigned against the levy the hardest also screamed the loudest about having to pay for the bus.
So, again. What are you going to cut. And what unintended consequences are YOU willing to live with. Should be easy for you since you seem to be implying that you do not benefit from your tax dollars.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
We can't have it all ways...I thought big oil, campaign contributions, special interests and money in general = the government. Now we're saying the people dictate what happens in Washington? So, the people don't want gun control? The people don't want marriage for everybody? The people want bridges to nowhere? The people wanted us to torture people at Gitmo? The people want oil companies to be subsidized? The people want the government to buy the mythical $1,000 hammer?
C'mon, I know you like to argue for argument's sake but I'm pretty sure I've seen you argue that there is inappropriate influence in DC and it ain't all just the people votes that determine what happens next.
I haven't seen one person say there aren't essential federal government functions.
A typical pointless statement. In a representative democracy, such as the one we live in, the people = the government. Unlike say a monarchy or a dictatorship. If people didn't like the fundamental system of govt, they'd change it. Last time I checked, we haven't had a revolution since the Constitution was adopted. However, if you'd like to defend the country from foreign attacks yourself, test your own food and drugs, inspect the plane when you fly a commercial airline, patrol your streets, prosecute crimes, educate the populace, etc to take the place of all other govt services that you currently benefit from, be my guest.
We can't have it all ways...I thought big oil, campaign contributions, special interests and money in general = the government. Now we're saying the people dictate what happens in Washington? So, the people don't want gun control? The people don't want marriage for everybody? The people want bridges to nowhere? The people wanted us to torture people at Gitmo? The people want oil companies to be subsidized? The people want the government to buy the mythical $1,000 hammer?
C'mon, I know you like to argue for argument's sake but I'm pretty sure I've seen you argue that there is inappropriate influence in DC and it ain't all just the people votes that determine what happens next.
I haven't seen one person say there aren't essential federal government functions.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Q. the people don't want gun control?
A. I don't have a poll in front of me, but I'll bet it's about 60-40 against (unless the question is loaded either way). Where I live, it's 99.8 - 0.2 against, up from 0.1 because now both my daughters vote.
Q. The people don't want marriage for everybody?
A. Again, no poll, but I'm pretty sure a majority doesn't want marriage equality but does want civil unions. Not that basic questions of civil rights should be decided by poll.
Q. The people want bridges to nowhere?
A. "It's good for jobs."
Q. The people wanted us to torture people at Gitmo?
A. Again, not something you want to put to a vote, but I imagine a large majority would vote for torture in a secret ballot. When threatened, we become animals.
Q. The people want oil companies to be subsidized?
A. I got nothin.'
Q. The people want the government to buy the mythical $1,000 hammer
A. As long as you run an ad that there's a bear, an Arab, a Hun, an Indian, a Spaniard, or a redcoat in the woods, than yes, people will buy anything for "defense."
Q. the people don't want gun control?
A. I don't have a poll in front of me, but I'll bet it's about 60-40 against (unless the question is loaded either way). Where I live, it's 99.8 - 0.2 against, up from 0.1 because now both my daughters vote.
Q. The people don't want marriage for everybody?
A. Again, no poll, but I'm pretty sure a majority doesn't want marriage equality but does want civil unions. Not that basic questions of civil rights should be decided by poll.
Q. The people want bridges to nowhere?
A. "It's good for jobs."
Q. The people wanted us to torture people at Gitmo?
A. Again, not something you want to put to a vote, but I imagine a large majority would vote for torture in a secret ballot. When threatened, we become animals.
Q. The people want oil companies to be subsidized?
A. I got nothin.'
Q. The people want the government to buy the mythical $1,000 hammer
A. As long as you run an ad that there's a bear, an Arab, a Hun, an Indian, a Spaniard, or a redcoat in the woods, than yes, people will buy anything for "defense."
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Not a bad example. I highly doubt the details of the referendum said anything about using the money to pay allow the school to keep paying to bus children that lived last than 2 miles from school. Where I grew up they followed the same rule and I didn't get bussed to school because I lived to close, so I walked or got a ride from my parents. In other news, I'm sure if the teachers union at the school district was more realistic about the economic situation and started having a contract that reflected more of what the rest of us do for retirement and healthcare, there would have been plenty of money to bus every kid to school.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Re the $1,000 hammer.
The way it works is how you apply overhead on the contract. If it is based as a % of the price of the item, then your $20 hammer costs $25. But, and this is more true than not, if you apply the overhead on a per item basis, then the $20 hammer has $980 of overhead applied on it for a total of $1,000.
If you buy a $10,000 engine, then it will cost you $12,500 in method 1, and $10,980 in method 2.
The moral - buy your hammers at the local hardware store, and make sure that the contract does not mandate you have to buy the hammer on the contract.
Re the $1,000 hammer.
The way it works is how you apply overhead on the contract. If it is based as a % of the price of the item, then your $20 hammer costs $25. But, and this is more true than not, if you apply the overhead on a per item basis, then the $20 hammer has $980 of overhead applied on it for a total of $1,000.
If you buy a $10,000 engine, then it will cost you $12,500 in method 1, and $10,980 in method 2.
The moral - buy your hammers at the local hardware store, and make sure that the contract does not mandate you have to buy the hammer on the contract.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Well, I don't pay federal taxes so I'm probably a bad example. But since you bring up education, I think that's a perfect example of something the feds should get out of. I'm happy to pay my property tax to the local school that I can help run.
I wasn't arguing that nobody should pay taxes for services (that they vote for). I was pointing out to the idiots who say, "It won't cost anything, the gov't will pay for it" (actually it was just rover) that the government doesn't actually pay for anything. All they do is take money from some other people to give to favored people or causes. They don't produce any value, but suck it off the top when it could be collected and distributed within the community or state. To say health care doesn't cost anything because the government will pick up the cost is sheer, blind stupidity.
I actually think it's best if we jack up taxes on most people over the short term, until we get the budget into some kind of balance. The only way people will be willing to cut programs is if they feel some of the pain of actually paying for them. The silly (Republican AND Democrat) ideas of running an indefinite budget deficit is what gives the rovers the idea that everything the government decrees is cost-free with no downside. Obama's right that some tax cuts should expire, but he probably isn't going far enough down the income scale to make a real difference. If we raised taxes on everyone making over 50K, they might think twice about funding the reconstruction of Afghanistan, etc. (of course, not being a taxpayer, I'm still defending my own pocketbook here. So the responsible thing for me would be to say, let's cut everything. But I think certain federal functions should be paid for by others. And I appreciate it. Thanks, rich people. I know it's not falling from the sky)
Well, I don't pay federal taxes so I'm probably a bad example. But since you bring up education, I think that's a perfect example of something the feds should get out of. I'm happy to pay my property tax to the local school that I can help run.
I wasn't arguing that nobody should pay taxes for services (that they vote for). I was pointing out to the idiots who say, "It won't cost anything, the gov't will pay for it" (actually it was just rover) that the government doesn't actually pay for anything. All they do is take money from some other people to give to favored people or causes. They don't produce any value, but suck it off the top when it could be collected and distributed within the community or state. To say health care doesn't cost anything because the government will pick up the cost is sheer, blind stupidity.
I actually think it's best if we jack up taxes on most people over the short term, until we get the budget into some kind of balance. The only way people will be willing to cut programs is if they feel some of the pain of actually paying for them. The silly (Republican AND Democrat) ideas of running an indefinite budget deficit is what gives the rovers the idea that everything the government decrees is cost-free with no downside. Obama's right that some tax cuts should expire, but he probably isn't going far enough down the income scale to make a real difference. If we raised taxes on everyone making over 50K, they might think twice about funding the reconstruction of Afghanistan, etc. (of course, not being a taxpayer, I'm still defending my own pocketbook here. So the responsible thing for me would be to say, let's cut everything. But I think certain federal functions should be paid for by others. And I appreciate it. Thanks, rich people. I know it's not falling from the sky)
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Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Because of the debt crisis, in fact, I'm finally coming around to appreciating Pat Buchanan's views (maybe not quite so isolationist as he)
Because of the debt crisis, in fact, I'm finally coming around to appreciating Pat Buchanan's views (maybe not quite so isolationist as he)
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
I will leave the regulatory alarmist thinking to others here - my main concern is an economic one, given the fact that most control is based on financial freedom.
Assuming that the many years of fiscal mismanagement are going to lead to higher tax rates for most of us, I would argue that this certainly constitutes greater control over our lives. Having less take-home pay certainly has an impact on the economic decisions we make in day-to-day life and will influence what we can / cannot buy. To get ourselves out of this fiscal mess, it's going to take decades of higher taxes and reduced government spending. Over the course of one's career, that "modest" increase in taxes will add up to many thousands of dollars. Now add in the double whammy that social security will almost certainly be reducing benefits and the length of time one can collect them to remain solvent. So, not only will we young workers have to pay higher tax rates over our careers, we'll also have to retire later and receive lower benefits after retiring - if we can retire at all. Oh, and while the government is taking more of our hard-earned money, the Federal reserve is printing it left and right for "quantitative easing" and devaluing the money we have.
I will leave the regulatory alarmist thinking to others here - my main concern is an economic one, given the fact that most control is based on financial freedom.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
I wouldn't hang my hat on the tea party. Friend of mine whose running for GOP says the tea party has extremists. This coming from a hardcore republican.
I wouldn't hang my hat on the tea party. Friend of mine whose running for GOP says the tea party has extremists. This coming from a hardcore republican.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
I'm fairly wingnut, but I disagree vehemently with this statement. The interstate system has value, the military has value, the national parks have value, etc. There are things that it is proper for the government to do, and we're all better off for the government's doing them.
On this, I vehemently agree!
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Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
what exactly is your point here? yes, a group who raises objection to accepted thought is going to have some nutters in it... this is surprising how?
what exactly is your point here? yes, a group who raises objection to accepted thought is going to have some nutters in it... this is surprising how?
XYZ
Smoking in the selection room.
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
And a friend of mine says there are extremists everywhere. This coming from a hardcore realist.
Unlike you, at least they are honest.
And a friend of mine says there are extremists everywhere. This coming from a hardcore realist.
Unlike you, at least they are honest.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!
Sounds like something Bob Bennett, Charlie Crist, or Lisa Murkowski would say.
I wish your friend similar success.
Sounds like something Bob Bennett, Charlie Crist, or Lisa Murkowski would say.
I wish your friend similar success.
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