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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

they're not the mossad. Mossad are the best agency in the business. if they were on this case the site would be down and Mr. Julian Assange would be in parts unknown, probably to be discovered 100 years from now.

I really think you're shorting the NSA/CIA. They're probably poised to do **** near anything. THey're just waiting for the call from the Oval Office hahaha.

Israel doesn't give two ****s about what the world thinks since 99% of them hate Israel anyways. The US, on the other hand, has allies it doesn't want to screw with. It has to maintain a certain decorum.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If they do build a mosque, why not have a few (ok a lot) of NYC less desireable citizens (legal or not) set up shop right out front?

A few cabbies parked out front blowing horns during prayer time, a fire truck horn, sirens, ladies of the evening, better living through chemistry, etc. Just enough things to make a nuisance and drive the clientele away and bankrupt the place.

I'm sure the cops would be somewhere else when somebody complains. But if one iman roughs up one of the less desirable, blam! out comes the billy clubs and a few heads get hurt.

It's just a darn shame that these things happen. Just a darn shame.

God I hope you are kidding. If not I hope someone does that to your church.

And once again, why are we using the Arab Countries to justify basically singling out the muslims in this case? Plus, isnt there a mosque like 4 blocks from Ground Zero? Is two blocks closer really going to matter all that much? I mean, it isnt like anything else is being built there and it has only been ten years.

I wanted to avoid the GZ scenario because I can see both sides of the argument and because it is but one in many instances. The Daily Show showed clips from news stations in Staten Island, Tennessee, WI, California...all having issues with mosques. (not to mention a Koran burning party on 9/11) We are supposed to be above that. I know we have plenty of mosques, but slowly it seems people are growing intolerant and it needs to be stopped. It isnt right.

Ya know what I found cool, when I was in Cairo there was a street that had on it the oldest Mosque in Africa, a 15th Century Synagogue and a Church dating back to the early Roman Empire...all still functioning with no problems. Maybe they should do that at GZ show the world that no matter we really are better :)
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Ya know what I found cool, when I was in Cairo there was a street that had on it the oldest Mosque in Africa, a 15th Century Synagogue and a Church dating back to the early Roman Empire...all still functioning with no problems. Maybe they should do that at GZ show the world that no matter we really are better :)

Yes, lets show the same people who think of this is a sign of weakness.

Ghandi-like shame models are only useful for those who have shame.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This seems like a tough one to me. Obviously, this older woman is coming out ahead, so maybe that rubs people the wrong way. But if I was a taxpayer in the school district in question, I'd stand up and applaud them for making the move. Because haven't they saved themselves money here?

That was my first thought as well. Schools are being constantly bombarded with demands to save money. Sounds like this school did just that. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
The school district did what it had to do to save money...thats fine. Saving dollars is a good thing. The problem I have is the Principal was able to retire from one job in the same field, collect her retirement check and get a check from another district for doing the same thing. The double dipping to this extent just seems wrong to me. There should be better incentives to keep her working and not collecting her pension check. This happens in the military too except thats typically retiring from the military and picking up a job in the private sector.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

God I hope you are kidding. If not I hope someone does that to your church.

And once again, why are we using the Arab Countries to justify basically singling out the muslims in this case? Plus, isnt there a mosque like 4 blocks from Ground Zero? Is two blocks closer really going to matter all that much? I mean, it isnt like anything else is being built there and it has only been ten years.

I wanted to avoid the GZ scenario because I can see both sides of the argument and because it is but one in many instances. The Daily Show showed clips from news stations in Staten Island, Tennessee, WI, California...all having issues with mosques. (not to mention a Koran burning party on 9/11) We are supposed to be above that. I know we have plenty of mosques, but slowly it seems people are growing intolerant and it needs to be stopped. It isnt right.

Ya know what I found cool, when I was in Cairo there was a street that had on it the oldest Mosque in Africa, a 15th Century Synagogue and a Church dating back to the early Roman Empire...all still functioning with no problems. Maybe they should do that at GZ show the world that no matter we really are better :)

You can't ignore the GZ aspect since that is the absolute crux of the argument against it. No one cares about the mosque itself, it's the fact that they are trying to provoke a response.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

...
I wanted to avoid the GZ scenario because I can see both sides of the argument and because it is but one in many instances. The Daily Show showed clips from news stations in Staten Island, Tennessee, WI, California...all having issues with mosques. (not to mention a Koran burning party on 9/11) We are supposed to be above that. I know we have plenty of mosques, but slowly it seems people are growing intolerant and it needs to be stopped. It isnt right.

...

Actually, we're not suppose to be above that in this country...we are suppose to be tolerant of those that disagree with us. How is burning korans any different than having the right to burn the flag in protest? We have freedom of association you. That means I choose to not live near a mosque and protest the fact that someone wants to build one down the street from my house. People always seem to forget that the 1st amendment protects alot of things, including those things that you might hate.

I know its a cheesy stupid movie but here is a quote from The American President:
President Andrew Shepherd said:
For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being President of this country is entirely about character. For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it! We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a whore. Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

You're kidding, right?

I meant to say near the top. Mossad is clearly the top. MI-6 is good but I don't think they have the resources. The russians haven't been at the top since the cold war.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I meant to say near the top. Mossad is clearly the top. MI-6 is good but I don't think they have the resources. The russians haven't been at the top since the cold war.

As far as information gathering, especially as far as humint is concerned, the Russians always have made and continue to make us look like a bunch of bozos. The relative competence in technical matters is much more open to debate.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

As far as information gathering, especially as far as humint is concerned, the Russians always have made and continue to make us look like a bunch of bozos. The relative competence in technical matters is much more open to debate.

I'll concede that. I guess I was referring to the technical stuff in this case since the original discussion was on this ******nozzle assange
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

They probably know how... I doubt Obama would authorize such an action because it plays into his political desires... failure in Afghanistan and failure in Iraq.

Recall that Obama and the liberals want to destroy and de-legitimize any ideology where the power of the US military is to be used. That's why EVERY action is going to be the "next Vietnam". The administration hasn't said much about this situation... but it has let the Pentagon look flaccid in front of Mr. Assange.

Obama's failure is not getting us out of those two countries. We have had a lot of success in both countries, but it is time to bring vast majority of our troops home. It's time to see if either country wants what we have given them the chance to take.

Winning or losing really isn't possible in either country. At some point we have to get out and see what happens. Despite our wishes, we simply can't control and influence everything.

Military action is not a conservative value. It is a last resort when there are no other options available. I personally believe we have options again in both countries.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Why can't Cindy Sheehan just go away...? :mad: :mad:

Challenging robert gibbs to a "pee-off" She's sick in the head and I wish the media would stop covering her.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Why can't Cindy Sheehan just go away...? :mad: :mad:

Challenging robert gibbs to a "pee-off" She's sick in the head and I wish the media would stop covering her.

I feel bad for her son - instead of being remembered as an honored serviceman who gave his last serving his country, he's being remembered as the dead soldier with the crazy mom who can't let go, and that's her fault.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

They seriously can't find a way to get even 1/8 of a mile away? I'd say "out of the neighborhood" would be fine.

They own the property, and their uses are permitted by the zoning on the site. What's the problem?

Who said anything about a legal mechanism?

I did. What other mechanism are you going to use to oppose this? You're perfectly within your rights to dislike it - but the nice thing about our freedoms is that people are allowed to practice their religion in spite of your dislike.

I agree with most of this.

I don't understand the intolerance argument. I'm not sure how that comes into play when we have more mosques in the United States than there are churches in Islamic countries, namely yemen, saudi, iran, pakistan, iraq, etc.


the building of the ground zero mosque serves one main purpose really. It's symbolism, and very meaningful symbolism at that. Calling it "Cordoba" as initially desired was the indication of victory/triumph in word, let alone the physical victory of building this mosque right next to ground zero. Since Cordoba was the capital of the Islamic Caliphate (then called Qurṭuba) from the 10th or 11th century that Bin Laden himself alludes to frequently. In fact he calls for the re-introducing or re-establishing of that calliphate almost in every tape he delivers.

really this is enough for me to say no.

I hope the construction workers of the country rally around the flag and say, "no, not here, not this time"

Let me put it this way - would you oppose a Catholic church on the exact same site? How about a Buddhist temple? If you'd accept any other religion's facility there, then how is that not being intolerant? How is that not in contravention to our freedom to practice religion?

The only potential mechanism to oppose this would be some even-handed municipal law, such as a zoning code, that would apply to all churches, regardless of faith. Absent that - on what grounds can you oppose this? The thing is - even local land use laws aren't that great at limiting the freedoms of religious institutions to do what they like, thanks to RLUIPA.

General rule. No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person, including a religious assembly or institution, unless the government can demonstrate that imposition of the burden on that person, assembly or institution

1. is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
2. is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

I'm not saying you have to like it. But on what grounds can you actually aim to put a stop to this?

You can say no all you want - the lovely thing about our liberties is that your opinion doesn't mean jack in this instance.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Why can't Cindy Sheehan just go away...? :mad: :mad:

Challenging robert gibbs to a "pee-off" She's sick in the head and I wish the media would stop covering her.

I've got $20 on that Sheehan guy ... ;)
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

They own the property, and their uses are permitted by the zoning on the site. What's the problem?



I did. What other mechanism are you going to use to oppose this? You're perfectly within your rights to dislike it - but the nice thing about our freedoms is that people are allowed to practice their religion in spite of your dislike.



Let me put it this way - would you oppose a Catholic church on the exact same site? How about a Buddhist temple? If you'd accept any other religion's facility there, then how is that not being intolerant? How is that not in contravention to our freedom to practice religion?

The only potential mechanism to oppose this would be some even-handed municipal law, such as a zoning code, that would apply to all churches, regardless of faith. Absent that - on what grounds can you oppose this? The thing is - even local land use laws aren't that great at limiting the freedoms of religious institutions to do what they like, thanks to RLUIPA.



I'm not saying you have to like it. But on what grounds can you actually aim to put a stop to this?

You can say no all you want - the lovely thing about our liberties is that your opinion doesn't mean jack in this instance.
I agree with all of this - it would be entirely inappropriate (not to mention unconstitutional) for any governmental body to discriminate against the builders of this mosque.

Assuming the builders have followed all the legitimate, non-discriminatory permit procedures, the only legal way to "prevent" this mosque from being built is for the opponents to exercise their first-amendment rights to raise enough of a fuss that the public pressure against the mosque makes the builders reconsider and CHOOSE not to build it because they don't want the bad publicity. If, as many opponents claim, the entire purpose of the mosque is for the builders to thumb their noses at American society, this strategy seems entirely unlikey to be effective - and is, in fact, probably counterproductive. If that is the case, then the course of action most likely to discourage the builders is to ignore the whole thing and deny the builders the spotlight that they allegedly crave. That'll learn 'em!
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Let me put it this way - would you oppose a Catholic church on the exact same site? How about a Buddhist temple? If you'd accept any other religion's facility there, then how is that not being intolerant? How is that not in contravention to our freedom to practice religion?

Of course, when the Lutheran's declare a jihad on you, you just end up with a kitchen full of hot dishes you couldn't eat in a year. :p
 
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