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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I agree with all of this - it would be entirely inappropriate (not to mention unconstitutional) for any governmental body to discriminate against the builders of this mosque.

Assuming the builders have followed all the legitimate, non-discriminatory permit procedures, the only legal way to "prevent" this mosque from being built is for the opponents to exercise their first-amendment rights to raise enough of a fuss that the public pressure against the mosque makes the builders reconsider and CHOOSE not to build it because they don't want the bad publicity. If, as many opponents claim, the entire purpose of the mosque is for the builders to thumb their noses at American society, this strategy seems entirely unlikey to be effective - and is, in fact, probably counterproductive. If that is the case, then the course of action most likely to discourage the builders is to ignore the whole thing and deny the builders the spotlight that they allegedly crave. That'll learn 'em!


Well said. Public protest is fine and perfectly legal. Other than that, if they went through the process governing building in NYC that everybody else does, its against this country's principles to deny them based on their religion. Just as all Germans aren't responsible for Hitler, nor all Japanese responsible for Pearl Harbor, nor are all Muslims responsible for the crimes of people that I've seen no evidence that they're linked to.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

You're kidding, right?

As far as information gathering, especially as far as humint is concerned, the Russians always have made and continue to make us look like a bunch of bozos. The relative competence in technical matters is much more open to debate.

Interesting discussion on the prowess of KGB, CIA, MI6 and Mossad. My guess is that the MI6 has similar capabilities to the CIA just on a smaller scale...that Mossad is probably technically the best but in a very small subset of intel (specifically threats to their country)...and IMO that the Russians as is evidenced by their military is actually a far cry from the US on both technology and methodology. That leaves the CIA as top of the heap...not surprising as it would far and away have the biggest budget.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Interesting discussion on the prowess of KGB, CIA, MI6 and Mossad. My guess is that the MI6 has similar capabilities to the CIA just on a smaller scale...that Mossad is probably technically the best but in a very small subset of intel (specifically threats to their country)...and IMO that the Russians as is evidenced by their military is actually a far cry from the US on both technology and methodology. That leaves the CIA as top of the heap...not surprising as it would far and away have the biggest budget.

Yeah, the CIA/NSA are no where near the top of the heap in terms of competence or human intel. Technical proficiency, sure. And we've got more satellites and unmanned drones than anyone else by far. But that only gets you so far.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Yes, lets show the same people who think of this is a sign of weakness.

Ghandi-like shame models are only useful for those who have shame.

Why do you care what a bunch of religious crazies think? Do you think if we appear strong they won't hate us all the same? You think they wont attack us if we put a big phallic symbol there to show off how truly strong we are?
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I really want to know why you guys can't get it straight that no one is saying the government should intervene in this mosque issue. If they are, they're clearly in the wrong, but I haven't seen anything about preventing it through government intervention.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

The IRA isn't busy...let 'em build the mosque and have the IRA burn it down...problem solved


sorry, didn't include any ;-)
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I really want to know why you guys can't get it straight that no one is saying the government should intervene in this mosque issue. If they are, they're clearly in the wrong, but I haven't seen anything about preventing it through government intervention.

Opponents attempted to have the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission designate the building as a "landmark" to prevent use of the building as a mosque. They have also appealed the commission's decision to a local court. You have government intervention all over this ...
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Opponents attempted to have the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission designate the building as a "landmark" to prevent use of the building as a mosque. They have also appealed the commission's decision to a local court. You have government intervention all over this ...

I hadn't seen this up until this point. And they are wrong for it, like I said.

Did any of these pass? No.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I really want to know why you guys can't get it straight that no one is saying the government should intervene in this mosque issue. If they are, they're clearly in the wrong, but I haven't seen anything about preventing it through government intervention.

So, what are you saying then? How would you prevent this?

Plenty of people are voicing their displeasure with the idea, arguing (essentially) that this shouldn't be allowed. Allowed by whom?

When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. And when you don’t have either the law or the facts on your side, pound the table!

Keep pounding that table!
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I've already said that there's nothing wrong some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

Regarding the "allowed" now you're just arguing semantics.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I've already said that there's nothing wrong some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

Regarding the "allowed" now you're just arguing semantics.

No, I'm not. It's a fundamental point that has seemingly done a fly-by right past many of the mosque opponents.

There's a big difference between arguing that "I don't like what they're doing, but they have a right to do it" and saying "they shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque there."

This raises two fundamental questions about the role of our government - one being the protection of the right to free exercise of religion, and the other being the government's role in regulating property rights. Even raising the question of whether this should be allowed or not misses the point - the land use laws either allow for religious uses there or they do not. There is no distinction based on the kind of religion, nor should there be.

What strikes me in hearing these comments is that there's a serious misrepresentation of how these laws (more like basic principles, really) apply to our society. Charles Krauthammer does exactly this today in his column:

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want -- but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz -- and no mosque at Ground Zero.

I'd ask him the same hypothetical I asked in an earlier post. If you won't allow a mosque, would you allow a Catholic church? If the answer is yes, then you've failed the First Amendment. If the answer is no, then it's not about religion at all - and that 'no' restriction would have to be subject to RLUIPA.

At the same time, the New York Times has a profile of Bloomberg's support of the mosque, which explains the Mayor's logically coherent stance:

Michael R. Bloomberg is a former Wall Street mogul with a passion for the rights of a private property owner. He is a Jew whose parents asked their Christian lawyer to buy a house and then sell it back to them to hide their identity in an unwelcoming Massachusetts suburb.

...

On the community center, Mr. Bloomberg’s thinking from the start was informed by what he describes as the basic rights of the people behind it.

“If somebody wants to build a mosque in a place where it’s zoned for it and they can raise the money, then they can do that,” he said. “And it’s not the government’s business.”

The misunderstanding of what the government can and cannot do, what they can and cannot regulate, and the freedoms that they must protect is troubling to me.

Maybe I'd feel different if I heard more people saying "man, I don't like it, but that's their right." But I don't hear that. Even if that's what they're thinking, but they articulate it as what should and shouldn't be allowed, that's a troublesome misunderstanding.
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This all exposes once again the fundamental hypocrisy of many a conservative. Freedom of religion....as long as its a religion we cons approve of. For a bunch of Constitutional scholars, you'd think they'd interpret it correctly once in awhile. :eek:
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Look, I'm not arguing for the government to get involved. I just think it's a jack*** move that deserves more jack*** moves in response. Hence, civil disobedience.

Is this petty? Yeah, probably. Do I care? No, not really.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Look, I'm not arguing for the government to get involved. I just think it's a jack*** move that deserves more jack*** moves in response. Hence, civil disobedience.

Is this petty? Yeah, probably. Do I care? No, not really.


It seems that simple, if people disagree with the mosque being there then they can employ their constitutional right to legally protest. If their protest makes sense, then others may join in...if it is just knee-jerk reactionism then others will not join in.

Hard to pull the facts from the fiction in this whole series of posts but if the intent of putting it there and naming it is in some way intended to be a thumb in the eye then it is understandable for those who disagree to voice their displeasure. Other than that, what better way to demonstrate the difference between us and those who mean us harm than to allow it?

No matter what we do, those who hate us will still hate us. Perhaps turning the other cheek can influence the fence sitters.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It seems that simple, if people disagree with the mosque being there then they can employ their constitutional right to legally protest. If their protest makes sense, then others may join in...if it is just knee-jerk reactionism then others will not join in.

Hard to pull the facts from the fiction in this whole series of posts but if the intent of putting it there and naming it is in some way intended to be a thumb in the eye then it is understandable for those who disagree to voice their displeasure. Other than that, what better way to demonstrate the difference between us and those who mean us harm than to allow it?

No matter what we do, those who hate us will still hate us. Perhaps turning the other cheek can influence the fence sitters.

well said.

Look, I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to build there, because they should. I'm saying it's disrespectful, inflammatory, and they should not build there. I'd have no problem if this was further away.
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Opponents attempted to have the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission designate the building as a "landmark" to prevent use of the building as a mosque. They have also appealed the commission's decision to a local court. You have government intervention all over this ...

Is that right? I thought it was designated as a landmark, and the committee voted to remove that designation.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Tough issue. I can see how folks from both sides of the aisle could support either position...reducing pain to society or freedom. But in the end, I think I stick to freedom.

No matter what we do, those who hate us will still hate us. Perhaps turning the other cheek can influence the fence sitters.

...just found out I need to spread my rep around.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Is that right? I thought it was designated as a landmark, and the committee voted to remove that designation.

IIRC, the Commission voted unanimously against granting landmark status. I believe opponents originally petitioned for the status grant when it became known the building would house a mosque. And then everyone else from Palin and Gingrinch to Bloomberg and the ADL got involved ...
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Look, I'm not arguing for the government to get involved. I just think it's a jack*** move that deserves more jack*** moves in response. Hence, civil disobedience.

Is this petty? Yeah, probably. Do I care? No, not really.

Civil disobedience? Like what? Breaking windows, slashing tires, throwing rocks, spray painting intolerant messages? Because that is abhorrent behavior and once again is something that we should be above.

I am all for protesting, that is a legal right, beyond that is wrong and usually doesn't stop with just the "little stuff".
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

IIRC, the Commission voted unanimously against granting landmark status. I believe opponents originally petitioned for the status grant when it became known the building would house a mosque. And then everyone else from Palin and Gingrinch to Bloomberg and the ADL got involved ...

Hmm, maybe. They way I thought I remembered hearing it explained on the news was.: The current site is a historic landmark (currently a Burlington coat factory). To build the mosque, the coat factory would have to be torn down. Since it's a landmark, the landmark status would have to be revoked before tearing it down. I thought the board voted unanimously to revoke the status.

Either way, it amounts to the same thing I guess.
 
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