Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

So you guys are the one group of people who sussed out the brainwashing and counteracted it? My, how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

Amazing, isn't it. I think Bill O'Reilly went to Harvard. Imagine how much smarter he is than anyone else. He must be a genius.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If it weren't for my horse...

I have a feeling your casually tossed-out idea is going to haunt me to my grave.

The idea of ideas has a special place in philosophical history, all the way from medieval fights over universals (that tree is real (that thing with branches), and "that tree" is real (a pointer to one particular thing with branches), but in what way is "tree" real?) to Russell's paradox (is "the set of all sets that are not members of themselves" a member of itself?).

If I try to play analytic philosophy, I'm gonna lose . . . so I'll just say this:

Not all ideas are worth paying attention to. It's all about how they hang together. "Thinking without comparing is unthinkable."

It's how we make sense of those ideas that matters. And that's where Fox (and most cable news, to be fair) fails. The signal to noise ratio sux. I'll listen to (picking a random example) Bob Gray make a conservative argument on this board because (1) he's a smart guy, (2) he's informed, and (3) he cares about the small details. Like making sense. And going back and forth can be insightful. Fun, even (why else are we here?).

It's not about agreement. Agreement is boring. It's about elitism. Most folks here are smart. Even the ones who are wrong.

It's the willful embrace of stupidity that bugs me.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Childrens' attitudes are shaped far more strongly by their parents than anything else.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It's the willful embrace of stupidity that bugs me.

Fox fakes academic bona fides when it serves them. They're not anti- or pro-intellectual, they're just the propaganda arm for the GOP, and it's any tool to hand. Right now, they get a lot of traction calling opponents eggheads or elites or whatever. In a heartbeat, they switch over and talk about the danger of the mob. They will say anything to drive down the top marginal tax rate. Literally: nothing else matters to them. Not deficits. Not religion. Not immigration. It's just their paymasters' personal financial planning, pursued by political means.

And millions, many of them smart, enable them, even though they wouldn't even be asked to use the service entrance at their homes. That is truly a hoot. It's the greatest scam in history.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If I try to play analytic philosophy, I'm gonna lose . . . so I'll just say this:

Not all ideas are worth paying attention to. It's all about how they hang together. "Thinking without comparing is unthinkable."

It's how we make sense of those ideas that matters. And that's where Fox (and most cable news, to be fair) fails. The signal to noise ratio sux. I'll listen to (picking a random example) Bob Gray make a conservative argument on this board because (1) he's a smart guy, (2) he's informed, and (3) he cares about the small details. Like making sense. And going back and forth can be insightful. Fun, even (why else are we here?).

It's not about agreement. Agreement is boring. It's about elitism. Most folks here are smart. Even the ones who are wrong.

It's the willful embrace of stupidity that bugs me.

I think this is the biggest problem with today's politicians on both sides. Its all about the soundbite and digging up dirt on the other guy instead of honestly discussing the issues and finding equal footing or deciding who's plan actually has more merit.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Bush was otherwise engaged destroying our reputation as an honest broker.

The thing that "solves" the problem is the end of oil. That will dry up the terrorism dollars and obviate the need for the West to kowtow to both the Saudis as a supplier and the Israelis as a beachhead. Then they'll either work it out or blow each other to bits with about as much global impact as the Sudan.

I don't know of a single historical case of one culture moving in and utterly displacing another, from ancient Judea to the American west, that didn't end in genocide. People don't just give their land up, they fight. Settlement waves don't stop, they just up the ante. Eventually, one side runs out of trigger fingers, and that's "peace."

We've never been viewed as an honest broker. By the Israelis yes, by the Palestinians/Arabs never. To think so is to fundamentally misunderstand the Palestinian/Arab mindset. As long as we call ourselves Israel's friend, the best we can hope for from the Palestinians/Arabs is for them to think of us a bit less poorly and to work with us for their own selfish reasons.

Israel can never defeat the Muslims once and for all, given Israel's small relative size. If the Arabs ever defeated Israel, it would be the end, as they would destroy Israel comprehensively. But with Israel holding nukes, a truly defeated Israel would be horrifically dangerous to the Muslim nations around it, so Israel's comprehensive defeat isn't likely unless the Muslim leaders are so irrational they don't care about their nations being nuked. Which is possible given people like Ahminijab (sp?) in Iran being around.

Oil is a factor, but far from the only factor.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I think this is the biggest problem with today's politicians on both sides. Its all about the soundbite and digging up dirt on the other guy instead of honestly discussing the issues and finding equal footing or deciding who's plan actually has more merit.

Yup.

It's a shame that doing things that way actually qualifies as elitist, but that's a different rant.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Oil is a factor, but far from the only factor.

It's the factor that involves us, since it makes the region vital to our national interest. The Middle East minus oil equals Africa. The only thing interesting about the place then is that we will keep selling weapons to both sides.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

So you guys are the one group of people who sussed out the brainwashing and counteracted it? My, how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

I don't follow. I'm just saying that adults should be more responsible for what they subject themselves to. Whereas kids to a sizable extent don't control that and aren't as developed so are more easily influenced. Don't read into it more than I meant.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It's the factor that involves us, since it makes the region vital to our national interest. The Middle East minus oil equals Africa. The only thing interesting about the place then is that we will keep selling weapons to both sides.

The rest of the middle east, minus oil, is broadly comparable to Africa. But we'd have a strong interest in Israel and its well-being, even if there wasn't a drop of oil in the Middle East. Thinking we only care about Israel due to oil is being way too narrow in your thinking.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I don't follow. I'm just saying that adults should be more responsible for what they subject themselves to. Whereas kids to a sizable extent don't control that and aren't as developed so are more easily influenced. Don't read into it more than I meant.

You're arguing that public education is liberal brainwashing. I'm saying that's silly.

Also: don't expect adults to be any less susceptible to brainwashing than children. The folks who threw the switches in the Milgram experiment were adults.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

But we'd have a strong interest in Israel and its well-being, even if there wasn't a drop of oil in the Middle East.

About as much interest as we had in Ghana and Liberia. We didn't exactly go to the wall for them.

I'll grant you there would be a much more vocal and influential pressure group supporting the continuation of funds for Israel.

And here's the thing -- even if we were still whole hog in support for Israel that would be fine as long as there was no counterbalancing national interest to play nice with the Arabs. The problem isn't support for Israel, per se. They're an ally and a democracy and we should support them against autocracies. The problem is we're also up to our neck propping up anti-democratic regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc, so we are in a push-me-pull-you situation. That's what makes our foreign policy cognitively dissonant, if not incoherent.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If I try to play analytic philosophy, I'm gonna lose . . . so I'll just say this:

Not all ideas are worth paying attention to. It's all about how they hang together. "Thinking without comparing is unthinkable."

Absolutely. For instance, the idea that Barack Obama wasn't born in the US and/or isn't eligible to be President. Stupid. The idea that George Bush STOLE the 2000 election. Stupid. Neither worth paying attention to.

However, both sides have different views on the function of government and the function of the private sector. Neither side has all of the answers. That's why it's important for anyone who claims to have an open mind to listen to both sides and determine what makes the most sense given A) what that person's values are (and we all have different values) and B) the situation we find ourselves in.

To categorically refuse to consider any of the other side's arguments is a recipe for disaster. It's Kepler, to put it bluntly. When you think you have all of the answers yourself, you've got no answers whatsoever.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

You're arguing that public education is liberal brainwashing.

Brainwashing is a bit an overstatement. However, teachers certainly have the opportunity to influence the thinking of their students (or whether or not they think at all). Furthermore, they are dealing with a captive audience - while anyone can turn on or turn off FNC/MSNBC, et al, a kid can't walk out of class if s/he hears something s/he disagrees with - that's grounds for detention / suspension.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Brainwashing is a bit an overstatement. However, teachers certainly have the opportunity to influence the thinking of their students (or whether or not they think at all). Furthermore, they are dealing with a captive audience - while anyone can turn on or turn off FNC/MSNBC, et al, a kid can't walk out of class if s/he hears something s/he disagrees with - that's grounds for detention / suspension.

As you said, parents and pastors have far more influence than teachers, and teachers have a code they are supposed to follow to keep their opinions at home, whereas all the other influences are blaring theirs non-stop.

If teachers were so good at brainwashing their students, the first thing they'd brainwash them to do is grow up and vote them better salaries.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If I try to play analytic philosophy, I'm gonna lose . . . so I'll just say this:

Not all ideas are worth paying attention to. It's all about how they hang together. "Thinking without comparing is unthinkable."

It's how we make sense of those ideas that matters. And that's where Fox (and most cable news, to be fair) fails. The signal to noise ratio sux. I'll listen to (picking a random example) Bob Gray make a conservative argument on this board because (1) he's a smart guy, (2) he's informed, and (3) he cares about the small details. Like making sense. And going back and forth can be insightful. Fun, even (why else are we here?).

It's not about agreement. Agreement is boring. It's about elitism. Most folks here are smart. Even the ones who are wrong.

It's the willful embrace of stupidity that bugs me.

Interesting thoughts.

I agree that willful embrace of stupidity bugs me also. But, it's important to realize that few, if any people think they are embracing stupidity, so for a number of reasons it's generally good to be respectful of such people, even if you don't buy what they are selling at all. Reasons for generally being respectful to such people include:
1. Pragmatically, we all have to deal with such people and sometimes they are in positions of significant power. Openly blasting their stupidity would be bad both in trying to make things better and possibly in your standing in a job or other situation.
2. This is a little more personal, but I just think it's kind and courteous and right to treat people decently regardless of how off-the-wall they may be.
3. It's just possible that that person is more right than you think, and you are less right than you think. I've had situations where, later in life, I look back and realize I thought someone was pretty stupid, but now I realize they knew a lot more than I realized, and I was more stupid than I thought. A bit of humility can carry you a long way in life.

Quite frankly, I think the way our country conducts itself and makes decisions is probably stupider than at any time in its history, but even if that's the case, what do I do with that in how I live my life and conduct myself? It only would make the situation worse to simply tell everyone they are stupid. Better to do what you can in your life to be kind and respectful and hopefully win people over here and there with good reason and respectful discussion, while recognizing that you can also learn and change and become better by receiving from others, even ones who may seem stupid at times.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

You're arguing that public education is liberal brainwashing. I'm saying that's silly.

Also: don't expect adults to be any less susceptible to brainwashing than children. The folks who threw the switches in the Milgram experiment were adults.

I answered the question I was asked. Go back and look. I wouldn't call public education liberal brainwashing, but I would say that there is a strong liberal bent in how things are presented. I know my wife and I, if we have kids (here's hoping! ) plan to homeschool, as my wife is great with kids and a teacher and we aren't excited with a lot of what is put forth in public schools anymore. But, I think brainwashing is a really strong term and doesn't apply here.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

About as much interest as we had in Ghana and Liberia. We didn't exactly go to the wall for them.

I'll grant you there would be a much more vocal and influential pressure group supporting the continuation of funds for Israel.

And here's the thing -- even if we were still whole hog in support for Israel that would be fine as long as there was no counterbalancing national interest to play nice with the Arabs. The problem isn't support for Israel, per se. They're an ally and a democracy and we should support them against autocracies. The problem is we're also up to our neck propping up anti-democratic regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc, so we are in a push-me-pull-you situation. That's what makes our foreign policy cognitively dissonant, if not incoherent.

I just disagree. I think there are strong cultural and historic reasons we would retain a strong interest in Israel regardless. Of course if the Arabs didn't have oil money up the wazoo, they would have less means to try to destroy Israel with, so things might therefore calm down at least a little.

It is indeed an extremely challenging balancing act in the Middle East to retain our strong partnership with Israel, yet engage the Arabs meaningfully. In the end it may never be done successfully.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

As you said, parents and pastors have far more influence than teachers, and teachers have a code they are supposed to follow to keep their opinions at home, whereas all the other influences are blaring theirs non-stop.

Most of the influence in K-12 comes from the curriculum - since that's the basis for what is actually taught in the classroom and what must be learned by the students, regardless of the teacher's interjected opinions / biases (and while teachers may be expected to keep their opinions to themselves, since they're human beings, I find it highly doubtful they can teach everything opinion/bias-free, particularly if the class they are teaching involves current events or history).

If teachers were so good at brainwashing their students, the first thing they'd brainwash them to do is grow up and vote them better salaries.

That isn't necessary in most MN school districts; once teachers gain tenure, they earn a decent income and have a generous pension system when they retire. While the starting salary is somewhere in the mid-$30k range, the average salary for all teachers in the state is around $50k. Not bad at all for 9 months' work.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Yah, in many ways the teachers have less influence than before, with all the standards, curriculums, etc. that they have to teach to these days. And how those are set is of course a huge fight all the time, as witnessed recently in Texas where the state school board moved the curriculum a bit toward what has been called a more conservative perspective, to great wailing in many education quarters. That said, teachers till wield a lot of influence. And of course yes, parents are massively important.