Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[joecct]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I don't get it. Drilling in ANWR under either circumstance would have the same environmental impacts, provide the same amount of oil to the U.S., etc. Either scenario would provide the same benefits to the U.S. and if those benefits are sufficient, it should be pursued under either scenario. I don't think it makes sense to say drill under one scenario and don't drill under the other.

Because its not worth the environmental risk now. A drop in the barrel. Say there's some sort of oil shortage or international conflict in the future. Under current and projected future usage, oil in ANWR would buy us what, maybe an extra week's worth of oil?

Now, lets say we get to a point where having ANWR active is 25% of our oil needs, and then adding up other domestic production (from Texas, offshore, rest of Alaska, etc) we have a vast majority of our oil needs able to be met by domestic sources, because we're using a lot less oil than before. Now from a security standpoint it IS worth the environmental risk because the country won't have to grind to a halt if we have to take action against Iran or something like that and our overseas oil suppliers cut us off.

For me, its a risk vs reward trade off. Right now the rewards aren't worth the risks. Change the equation a bit and maybe it gets to a point where they are.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Does this remind anyone else of the last scene in "There Will Be Blood"?

I'll bring the bowling pin ...

 

[cF[Authentic]]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Build a wind farm along the US/Mexico border. Have the turbines at different heights, so if anyone tries to cross the border, they will be chopped up by the blades.

The only problem we'll have to worry about is Mexicans throwing rocks at the turbines. But Mexicans are so small, that they probably couldn't accurately throw.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

You're missing the key point here - corporations really can't make your life miserable without your consent.

...

Government, however, can indeed make your life miserable, whether you voted (for or against them) or not.

Unless youre limiting the dialog to a specific situation, your statement is not really true.

There are plenty of ways corporations have and do ultimately make many miserable. Today, some corporations still dump chemicals in rivers and hire illegals. Corporations (or their equivalents) have been capable of child labor, exploiting risky occupations like coal mining and were the reason slavery existed. And as they're not elected, many companies would do the same today...except for two things...the impact on company reputation and law.

And as companies can and do sometimes skirt these above two...bad societial stewardship comes both from poor governance and poor corporate behavior.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Here's the challenge for you - name for me one single scientific breakthrough to come out of the Islamic world since... oh, I don' t know... the dawn of Islam... that doesn't involve explosives or bomb-vest technology.

Asked and answered by Rick Moran at American Thinker:

I don't mean to be culturally insensitive but which Muslim (Arab) assisted Isaac Newton in writing his seminal work on gravity "The Principia?" Or perhaps helped Einstein get over the rough spots in writing his General Theory of Relativity?" Or helped Max Born and others develop quantum mechanics? Or whispered in the ear of Robert Goddard when he was inventing the liquid fueled rocket?

Science is a process. It builds upon the work of those who came before. The last significant contribution by Arab scientists to spaceflight probably occurred in the medieval period. And even those contributions were almost exclusively based on the work of ancient Greeks. To their credit, the Arab Muslims probably gave a boost to the scientific revolution that swept Europe during the Renaisance by their rescuing the ancient works of the Greeks from the ravages of the European Dark Ages as well as developing a rudimentary scientific method for solving problems.

Welcome to the National Appearances and Self-esteem Administration.

Line of the week -- and possibly the year! FYP as well!

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I think NASA should reach out to both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists to try and teach them about science.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I think NASA should reach out to both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists to try and teach them about science.

FYI
Much scientific advancement has been at the hands of Christians, including folks like Bacon, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Faraday, Joule, Mendel, etc.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

FYI
Much scientific advancement has been at the hands of Christians, including folks like Bacon, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Faraday, Joule, Mendel, etc.

Yeah, but, like the Muslims, what have they done for us lately?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Yeah, but, like the Muslims, what have they done for us lately?

There are few, if any, scientists today, whether Christian, non-Christian, Muslim, or whatever, that are well-known like a Boyle or Bacon that were making really fundamental discoveries and advancements.

Of course, even a non-Christian (as far as I know) guy like Einstein would drive evolutionists crazy, as he once said, among other things, that "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

There are few, if any, scientists today, whether Christian, non-Christian, Muslim, or whatever, that are well-known like a Boyle or Bacon that were making really fundamental discoveries and advancements.

Of course, even a non-Christian (as far as I know) guy like Einstein would drive evolutionists crazy, as he once said, among other things, that "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

And he'd drive religious people crazy, as he once said, among other things, that "the word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

There are few, if any, scientists today, whether Christian, non-Christian, Muslim, or whatever, that are well-known like a Boyle or Bacon that were making really fundamental discoveries and advancements.

Of course, even a non-Christian (as far as I know) guy like Einstein would drive evolutionists crazy, as he once said, among other things, that "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

I want to say he came from a Jewish family. In either case, relatively speaking, he had that general sort of Judeo-Christian background. Exactly how his beliefs were integrated into his work has been debated, I'm sure.

Another famous quote often attributed to Einstein was to the effect of "Science can teach us everything we'll ever want to know about the Universe, but it cannot answer why it bothers to exist in the first place"

Or something like that. In either case, he's hardly the role model for those who protest religion.

Oh man, this could really de-rail the thread.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

I don't think Einstein would have sided with the Creationism movement going on in the south either.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

I don't think Einstein would have sided with the Creationism movement going on in the south either.

I think some would find it surprising at the amount of Christians who don't side with it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I want to say he came from a Jewish family. In either case, relatively speaking, he had that general sort of Judeo-Christian background. Exactly how his beliefs were integrated into his work has been debated, I'm sure.

Another famous quote often attributed to Einstein was to the effect of "Science can teach us everything we'll ever want to know about the Universe, but it cannot answer why it bothers to exist in the first place"

Or something like that. In either case, he's hardly the role model for those who protest religion.

Oh man, this could really de-rail the thread.

He is quite interesting because he doesn't fit into the neat slots people tend to create when this type of subject comes up.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between the two is that there are plenty of people around here who look at option (1) and don't think that it's a paranoid delusion.

You speak as though a government must be totalitarian in nature to make a person's life miserable.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I think some would find it surprising at the amount of Christians who don't side with it.

That doesn't surprise. However, it is a Christian movement, albeit not one of the majority. However, there are so many different kinds (flavors) of Christianity nowadays it's hard to keep a scorecard.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

FYI
Much scientific advancement has been at the hands of Christians, including folks like Bacon, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Faraday, Joule, Mendel, etc.

Aw shucks.

BTW, today's fundies would be no friends of Kepler (neither would today's scientists, he has a foot on each continent). He wouldn't care for them, either -- the crazies in his day hounded his mother for witchcraft.

When religions talk about ethics they're on defensible, arguable, interesting ground. When they talk about anything material, like creation, they're just wild guessing. The morals of the story are: (1) it doesn't follow from the Resurrection being a primitive society's allegory of agricultural cycles that the Sermon on the Mount isn't a good idea, and (2) if you believe every word of any of the major religions' holy books is literally true, you're demonstrating ignorance, not faith.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

You speak as though a government must be totalitarian in nature to make a person's life miserable.

I do?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I do?

If you don't, then surely you think I'm paranoid.

If you want paranoid, check out Kepler. Dude's always looking under his bed for those darned fundamentalist Christians. They're trying to control him with their magic mind rays.