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Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

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Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

ScottM said:
I think part of the problem is that neither party, nor the President, has effectively articulated an energy policy or plan to address their vision, beyond "green jobs", "national security", etc. It's nice to trot out the newest solar project or oil find for the masses, but how do they affect the larger game plan? :confused:
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There is no question that there is no energy policy in the US. Probably because we are a 50/50 split nation and neither party will allow the other one to set up a policy. And with the whole 60 vote thing in the Senate we can't get it done.

Still amazes me Health Care passed (in any form). Probably will be the last major bill passed for a generation.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

ScottM said:
I think part of the problem is that neither party, nor the President, has effectively articulated an energy policy or plan to address their vision, beyond "green jobs", "national security", etc. It's nice to trot out the newest solar project or oil find for the masses, but how do they affect the larger game plan? :confused:
Click to expand...

I'll agree with this. I thought tackling energy from the climate change angle was a mistake. The goal should be energy independence. That has several positive offshoots, which are 1) jobs, 2) cheaper energy, and 3) less fossil fuels, hence reducing pollution. While I'm not as up to speed on the whole carbon tax concept as maybe I should be, I don't think that should be the focus of any legislation in the near term to address this issue.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

ExileOnDaytonStreet said:
Meh. We're comparing vastly different evils here.

On the other hand, you (theoretically) have a say in government at the poll booth. You don't really have the same amount of say when it comes to the people in charge of your bank. Even as a shareholder of said bank, the amount of say you have in it is on par with your say in government as a voter.
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I'd argue that you have far more of a say at your bank than in gov't. If you don't like what the bank is doing you can take your business elsewhere. If enough people join you, you force the bank to either change or close down. We all vote dozens of times each day. Every time you make a purchase it is like casting a vote. The more people buy something the more other companies have to adjust to offer what people like versus forcing you to use a particular product that don't like or need.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Rover said:
I'll agree with this. I thought tackling energy from the climate change angle was a mistake. The goal should be energy independence. That has several positive offshoots, which are 1) jobs, 2) cheaper energy, and 3) less fossil fuels, hence reducing pollution. While I'm not as up to speed on the whole carbon tax concept as maybe I should be, I don't think that should be the focus of any legislation in the near term to address this issue.
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Somebody write down the day - ScottM, Rover, and I all agree on something - here's to energy independence!
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

LynahFan said:
So it sounds like the actual answer is "no, I don't know how much the solar hot water system saved me, but look at this great heat pump."
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The solar was installed when the house was built so I have no way to compare electricity bills. I can tell you my heat pump hot water heater hasn't been on the last few days as solar is supplying my whole hot water load:p . I understand in Maine, the payback might not make bean counters happy, but I can't imagine it not working below the Mason Dixon. The thing I like about it is its simplicity. A collector, a tank,a heat exchanger, a differential controller and brass pump. Anyone with a mechancial ability can maintain it, its been on my roof for 20 years with 1 issue and that was a mistake in the heat exchanger assembly that started to leak about 5 years in. Easy fix, no issues since. Its payed for itself but maybe not in the time frame an Accountant would want it to.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Kepler said:
Is anybody out there explicitly campaigning for energy dependence? :confused: :p

(Other than these guys.)
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Pretty much everybody who buys unnecessarily large McMansions, keeps them at 65 deg all summer, and commutes solo 40 miles each way to work in his SUV. In other words, a fair proportion of the population...
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

LynahFan said:
Pretty much everybody who buys unnecessarily large McMansions, keeps them at 65 deg all summer, and commutes solo 40 miles each way to work in his SUV. In other words, a fair proportion of the population...
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But ya better hurry cuz it's goin' fast...
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

MinnFan said:
I'd argue that you have far more of a say at your bank than in gov't. If you don't like what the bank is doing you can take your business elsewhere. If enough people join you, you force the bank to either change or close down. We all vote dozens of times each day. Every time you make a purchase it is like casting a vote. The more people buy something the more other companies have to adjust to offer what people like versus forcing you to use a particular product that don't like or need.
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thanks for pointing that out. Someone said last week that you can vote or run for office, but you have no control over businesses.
My feeling is that it's extremely unlikely that any political vote you cast in your life makes a difference, but that if you make a purchase, hold a job, or engage in any activity in exchange for any consideration, you are in direct and immediate control of commerce. Which is why corporations are "of, for, and by the people" far beyond who sits on the board or owns stock.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Kepler said:
Is anybody out there explicitly campaigning for energy dependence? :confused: :p

(Other than these guys.)
Click to expand...

No, but there are some people who would pursue a strategy who's end result would be to keep us dependent on foreign sources of energy. For example, I think its pretty much a consensus that we can't drill enough oil domestically to make up for the country's current and expected future petroleum needs. Therefore, an energy policy dedicated solely to "drill, baby, drill" = kissing up to emirs for a long, long time.

So, lets take ANWR. Right now drilling there makes little sense because the amount of oil to be recovered is small as a % of our total needs, and its way more expensive to get oil from a frozen ground than it is from a Middle Eastern desert.

But, lets say the country through other means reduces oil needs substantially. So much so, that the oil in ANWR would account for say 25% of the country's needs. That changes the equation significantly for me.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

ExileOnDaytonStreet said:
Meh. We're comparing vastly different evils here.

On the other hand, you (theoretically) have a say in government at the poll booth.
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You've got a say in who is in government, but that's where it ends. When the government makes a decision that makes your life miserable, you can't just choose another government tomorrow. Even on election day, you don't always get the government YOU want.

You don't really have the same amount of say when it comes to the people in charge of your bank. Even as a shareholder of said bank, the amount of say you have in it is on par with your say in government as a voter.
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Then choose a different bank. That's what's great about business - they have to compete with each other for your dollar. What's with this deflection of responsibility I'm seeing here? Make better financial decisions and you won't have to worry about companies and corporations holding power over you. It's really not that hard.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Rover said:
No, but there are some people who would pursue a strategy who's end result would be to keep us dependent on foreign sources of energy. For example, I think its pretty much a consensus that we can't drill enough oil domestically to make up for the country's current and expected future petroleum needs. Therefore, an energy policy dedicated solely to "drill, baby, drill" = kissing up to emirs for a long, long time.

So, lets take ANWR. Right now drilling there makes little sense because the amount of oil to be recovered is small as a % of our total needs, and its way more expensive to get oil from a frozen ground than it is from a Middle Eastern desert.

But, lets say the country through other means reduces oil needs substantially. So much so, that the oil in ANWR would account for say 25% of the country's needs. That changes the equation significantly for me.
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I don't get it. Drilling in ANWR under either circumstance would have the same environmental impacts, provide the same amount of oil to the U.S., etc. Either scenario would provide the same benefits to the U.S. and if those benefits are sufficient, it should be pursued under either scenario. I don't think it makes sense to say drill under one scenario and don't drill under the other.
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Could we just start horizontal drilling into Mexico, Nigeria and Canada's reserves from inside our borders, claim them for America, and call it a day? :confused: ;)
 
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

LynahFan said:
Pretty much everybody who buys unnecessarily large McMansions, keeps them at 65 deg all summer, and commutes solo 40 miles each way to work in his SUV. In other words, a fair proportion of the population...
Click to expand...

Thats another thing, if you go back and look at the square feet of an average home back in the 60s and 70s and look at it today, it will stagger you. Energy efficiency is way up but we have huge homes now
 
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Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Red Cloud said:
Then choose a different bank. That's what's great about business - they have to compete with each other for your dollar. What's with this deflection of responsibility I'm seeing here? Make better financial decisions and you won't have to worry about companies and corporations holding power over you. It's really not that hard.
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Of course not. But this discussion began with a comparison of two absurdly extreme notions: (1) a totalitarian government and (2) a world of A Super-Corporate Big Brother (I suppose Brawndo in "Idiocracy" isn't a bad example), where everything is consolidated and the notion of choice is reduced to "Brawndo or... Brawndo".

Neither of those situations exist in real life, and are in fact quite absurd. It's difficult to even imagine a scenario where either one of them could actually come to fruition. Yet both get thrown around in a lot of these debates over the limits of the role of government.

As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between the two is that there are plenty of people around here who look at option (1) and don't think that it's a paranoid delusion.
 
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