Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Because Hydro Quebec has huge generating facilities and need somewhere to sell it.
You talked about using water, where is a new Hydro dam being built? I can name 2 that are about to get taken out in Maine, where are there any plans to build a new dam to generate electricity in the US?
Also lots of wind turbines have gone up in Maine, can you tell me how much they are actually generating and how much a kwh actually costs from wind?

I think some estimate I saw were around $3 wind vs $1 for coal/natural gas. I remember seeing something about spray on solar panels from PBS and sending prices down dramatically but when I did a search on google, noticed it's been written about since 2005 or longer, it might be another mercer flying car scam/fantasy. Although If I were to guess this spray on solar panel is more realistic cost wise than a flying car.

But we do need a comprehensive alternative energy policy, I think holland (10%)/denmark (20%) went wind and germans (10%?) went solar. And they have the same problems with wind as we do... lack of land, noise and sore sight. So they are building more expensive offshore wind farms.
And they built the industry around it and are exporting it to other countries.

So lets make a compromise. we open drilling everywhere ANWR, offshore etc... to make republicans and business happy. And we shift the $100billion or whatever subsidy we're giving to oil companies and add extra royalty tax into alternative energy development. I think the ceo from denmark or holland was on charlie rose talking about how much wind power we could generate in the USA. especially in the windy mid-west and some offshore

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com...ind-power-to-50-by-2025-mostly-offshore-46749

We have come a long way since the 1980s, when most electricity production was based on coal and when the acidification of forests and lakes by acid rain was the predominant theme in the environmental debate. Today wind power provides 20% of Danish electricity consumption.

Within a few years, the wind power industry has grown to become a significant industrial sector providing huge benefits for exports and employment. We are now talking about windpower generation plants rather than single turbines, and the Danish wind power industry is at the leading edge in an ever more competitive global market.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I think some estimate I saw were around $3 wind vs $1 for coal/natural gas.

I'm all for wind, UMaine is going at full bore. Maine has proposed a huge off shore wind farm with floating towers. But the numbers have to work. Maine has 2 or 3 major wind farms, we hear all about what the turbines are capable of but we never hear what they actually produce. UMaine Presque Isle has erected a large turbine in a great spot and so far the numbers aren't too promising. Its important to get real figures out of these wind farms but the developers aren't giving them out

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Looks like Germany gets 16% from solar. But it's heavily subsidized and guaranteed. 60cent/kwh solar vs 12cents/kwh for coal/nuclear. I saw this on PBS and most german farmers were converting some farmland into solar panels to sell back into the grid.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25577/

A decade ago, Germany launched a renewable-*energy plan on an unprecedented scale. Its parliament, the Bundestag, enacted a law obligating the nation's electric utilities to purchase green power at sky-high rates--as much as 60 cents per kilowatt-hour for solar--under fixed contracts lasting up to 20 years. (German market prices for electricity, largely produced by coal and nuclear plants, were about 12 cents per kilowatt-hour.)

From one perspective, the Renewable Energy Sources Act of 2000 has exceeded its aims. Germany's first target was to get at least 10 percent of its electric power from renewable sources by 2010. The German grid now gets more than 16 percent of its electricity from these sources, and the government has raised its target for 2020 from 20 percent to 30 percent.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/germany-france-cut-support-solar-power/article-189131

Published: 21 January 2010 | Updated: 25 January 2010
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Germany said yesterday (20 January) that it would cut its subsidies for solar power in line with the rapid take-up of the photovoltaic market. The news follows a similar announcement by France last week.

Wow that sounds exactly like the oil companys rationale for keeping the oil subsidy. job loss, reliable business conditions, investments.

The proposed cut threatens the foundations of the German solar industry and the shift to an age of renewables. If the environment minister wants to implement his ambitious plans to base Germany's energy supply almost entirely on renewable energy by 2050, he must provide for reliable subsidy conditions instead of spooking investors," the BEE said in a statement.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The problem with those figures is that, if I'm not mistaken, they only represent costs of generating electricity. Problem is, coal plants generate more than electricity

We don't even need to talk about climate. There are more immediate costs from particulate pollution. As long as we externalize the costs of dealing with those problems, coal is going to be attractive. The subsidies for coal dwarf those for renewables.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I'm all for wind, UMaine is going at full bore. Maine has proposed a huge off shore wind farm with floating towers. But the numbers have to work. Maine has 2 or 3 major wind farms, we hear all about what the turbines are capable of but we never hear what they actually produce. UMaine Presque Isle has erected a large turbine in a great spot and so far the numbers aren't too promising. Its important to get real figures out of these wind farms but the developers aren't giving them out

Well that's too bad. since it's operational and they should have hard numbers.
I think our city/state has been talking about and doing enviromental studies since the 80's on building a hydro dam since locally we're running out of natural gas. And it doesn't look like we'll build the NG pipeline anytime this decade.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The proposed cut threatens the foundations of the German solar industry and the shift to an age of renewables. If the environment minister wants to implement his ambitious plans to base Germany's energy supply almost entirely on renewable energy by 2050, he must provide for reliable subsidy conditions instead of spooking investors," the BEE said in a statement.

And there you have it. Solar does not work in temperate latitudes without subsidies in perpetuity. "Free" solar is like "free" energy from a perpetual motion machine - sure, you get free energy, so long as you don't bother to account for the extra you have to keep kicking in.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And there you have it. Solar does not work in temperate latitudes without subsidies in perpetuity. "Free" solar is like "free" energy from a perpetual motion machine - sure, you get free energy, so long as you don't bother to account for the extra you have to keep kicking in.

"renewable" energy has a price that people don't want to pay... are we really surprised?

Those of you who want it that bad... why not invest yourself or start up a windfarm/solar collective or some other thing where you put your own money into it.

edit: I just saw "Pawn Stars" where somebody was selling their paper railbonds (as in the bonds were no longer worth anything)... why not do the same?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

"renewable" energy has a price that people don't want to pay... are we really surprised?

Those of you who want it that bad... why not invest yourself or start up a windfarm/solar collective or some other thing where you put your own money into it.

Because that doesn't force everyone else to live the way they want to force everyone to live. Duh.

Didn't you know that they know better than you?

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Because that doesn't force everyone else to live the way they want to force everyone to live. Duh.

Didn't you know that they know better than you?

We're dealing with people that, in the presence of the worst economic downturn in the last 60 years, wants things, systematically, to cost MORE. And that this itself is a good thing.

We're all quite aware at this point.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

We're dealing with people that, in the presence of the worst economic downturn in the last 60 years, wants things, systematically, to cost MORE. And that this itself is a good thing.

We're all quite aware at this point.

And ultimately, why the "all of the above" plan I put forward several years ago will never be taken seriously, even though it makes more sense than anything that's being said (especially by Brainless).

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And ultimately, why the "all of the above" plan I put forward several years ago will never be taken seriously, even though it makes more sense than anything that's being said (especially by Brainless).

You know, I won't say that there isn't things that government could do that are grandiose. In general the gov't needs to take on things that individuals won't... national defense is an obvious one... but we take it to such a large latitude and even then we do it with the wrong things.

When you break it down there are so many things we're doing wrong here... and a lot of them we don't need to be doing wrong. It bothers me that it doesn't bother more people. I mean we just put in a "health overhaul" which was designed to break with multiple faults in place... and its going to tick off doctors and kill small business.

I mean, we're attacking the source of the next booming economy in its cradle. We've laid off so many talented folks in the last few years that one would think that we'd want to promote these breeding grounds of new ideas.... at least latently... when we do it specifically we get political nonsense like "green energy" and "green economy"... you know what... I want a revolution in door hinges... why not? That's what promoting small business will do... promote competitiveness, new ideas, and efficiency in the industries we're too busy to notice.

We're so busy trying to tear down "evil" businesses when we need to be providing competition to the "evil" groups. How about we spend less time on the show trial and give people the ability to show their stuff?

 

[SteveP]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If this is not the height of the lunacy of this administration, I don't know what is.

"When I became the NASA administrator, [Obama] charged me with three things," NASA head Charles Bolden said in a recent interview with the Middle Eastern news network al-Jazeera. "One, he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math; he wanted me to expand our international relationships; and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math, and engineering."

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If this is not the height of the lunacy of this administration, I don't know what is.

See... I thought it was about using the telescopes to find out the secrets of our universe, determine the feasibility of mining asteroids/moon, research possible travel to Mars, and working on detecting Earth crossing asteroids. You learn something new every day.

So, I take it that next year's NASA funding is going to come in at a cool 10-20 million dollars? That should be enough for a museum, some classroom tapes, some advertising dollars on Al-Arabia, and a trip to some overseas think tank events.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

See... I thought it was about using the telescopes to find out the secrets of our universe, determine the feasibility of mining asteroids/moon, research possible travel to Mars, and working on detecting Earth crossing asteroids. You learn something new every day.

So, I take it that next year's NASA funding is going to come in at a cool 10-20 million dollars? That should be enough for a museum, some classroom tapes, some advertising dollars on Al-Arabia, and a trip to some overseas think tank events.

As someone commented on the FNC website:

Bolden will ask some of the FY11 NASA budget be directed to removing any references to Pigs in Space in episodes of the Muppet Show, in order to increase the ease of his outreach efforts.

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[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And there you have it. Solar does not work in temperate latitudes without subsidies in perpetuity. "Free" solar is like "free" energy from a perpetual motion machine - sure, you get free energy, so long as you don't bother to account for the extra you have to keep kicking in.

I might amend your post. These technologies will not require subsidies in the future. New technologies that are in high demand rapidly see their costs drop. Name a technology that is in use today...two decades ago if that technology existed, odds are it would have cost on average 10x for similar technology what it does today. Its just a matter of time for solar also.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I might amend your post. These technologies will not require subsidies in the future. New technologies that are in high demand rapidly see their costs drop. Name a technology that is in use today...two decades ago if that technology existed, odds are it would have cost on average 10x for similar technology what it does today. Its just a matter of time for solar also.

Looks like it's happening already, at least in Germany where they built the solar industry based on subsidy. China is basically doing the same thing, they are starting to build wind turbines for domestics GW wind farms, the gigawatt flux capacitor.

I'm not even sure what the opposition is with subsidies (oil, farm, education, housing, banks etc...). At least this sector could use it unlike some other industry gushing cash while asking for continued subsidy.

Just think of it as building new tech. internet, interstate hiway
and railroads (cheap land rights and gov contracts). And if we learned any lesson from the internet build up we need more effective regulations dealing with competition of last mile. Instead of running at 50mbps I'm running on 350k "broadband" because non of the fiber optic (broadband) companies could connect to the consumers (last mile) and most of them went under and got bought out by cable and phone companies. 10 years ago we had a glut of bandwidth and now these guys are proposing metering and other charges.

We really don't have free markets in electric grid anyways. I lowered my electric usage by 60% kwh (50% from replacing fridge, 10% from using CFL bulbs) but my bill only went down by 25%. My "connection fee" is actually higher than my kw usage now.

And I think one criteria for building a new NG powerplant to meet future needs of the city was for the company to get a guaranteed "fee" tacked on the the bill, so if they can lower the cost a bit more in the future or cost of fossile fuel goes up, it might be prudent for us as a nation to subsidize renewable energy other than corn.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I might amend your post. These technologies will not require subsidies in the future. New technologies that are in high demand rapidly see their costs drop. Name a technology that is in use today...two decades ago if that technology existed, odds are it would have cost on average 10x for similar technology what it does today. Its just a matter of time for solar also.

Of course that thought process works for the technologies that are in use today - those are the very technologies that won out in the marketplace BECAUSE they could be made more cheaply. You have the cause and effect 100% reversed. If someone developed an amazing technology 40 years ago that couldn't be made cheaply enough to sell for a profit, guess what? It won't be in use today. You're self-selecting for marketplace winners and ignoring the plethora of marketplace losers that have perished on the vine.

And it is not just a matter of time for solar. Even if we had 100% efficient cells (not a chance) that could be manufactured nearly for free (not a chance), solar is still too expensive by virtue of the real estate required, the backup and storage systems needed, the maintenance, etc. to put a dent into the US electricity market as a whole. Solar is just too diffuse and too unreliable (night and weather) as a source, and no amount of technology at any price is going to change that fact.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Those of you who want it that bad... why not invest yourself or start up a windfarm/solar collective or some other thing where you put your own money into it.

I already have Solar domestic hot water, there is no reason it can't be used used everywhere if it works in Maine. In fact it should be used everywhere south of the mason dixon. Obviously I don't get all my hot water from it so I also have a heat pump hot water heater, instead of typical resistance type hot water I get 3 time more hot water for the same amount of electricity input.
The last thing I'm working on is solar heat in my shop.I'm building my own collector on the south side of the building, it will circulate water thru a grid of pipes that poured into the concrete floor, known as Radiant heat.

Solar panels for electricity won't payback , solar hot water will

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Well that's too bad. since it's operational and they should have hard numbers.
I think our city/state has been talking about and doing enviromental studies since the 80's on building a hydro dam since locally we're running out of natural gas. And it doesn't look like we'll build the NG pipeline anytime this decade.

Presque Isle does have numbers and they aren't close to what was projected last I knew. What I want to know is what the windfarms in Northern Maine have produced.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I already have Solar domestic hot water, there is no reason it can't be used used everywhere if it works in Maine.

(snip)

Solar panels for electricity won't payback , solar hot water will

How do you know?

Have you analyzed your electricity bills before and after installing the solar hot water system? How much did the system cost to install? How long until your break even point? Did you factor in the time value of money?

You may not care enough to calculate those things for your little house project, but believe me that a utility will have to do all those things before deciding to invest in a large-scale alternative energy project.