Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I already have Solar domestic hot water, there is no reason it can't be used used everywhere if it works in Maine. In fact it should be used everywhere south of the mason dixon. Obviously I don't get all my hot water from it so I also have a heat pump hot water heater, instead of typical resistance type hot water I get 3 time more hot water for the same amount of electricity input.
The last thing I'm working on is solar heat in my shop.I'm building my own collector on the south side of the building, it will circulate water thru a grid of pipes that poured into the concrete floor, known as Radiant heat.

Solar panels for electricity won't payback , solar hot water will

How do you know?

Have you analyzed your electricity bills before and after installing the solar hot water system? How much did the system cost to install? How long until your break even point? Did you factor in the time value of money?

You may not care enough to calculate those things for your little house project, but believe me that a utility will have to do all those things before deciding to invest in a large-scale alternative energy project.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If this is not the height of the lunacy of this administration, I don't know what is.

Here's the challenge for you - name for me one single scientific breakthrough to come out of the Islamic world since... oh, I don' t know... the dawn of Islam... that doesn't involve explosives or bomb-vest technology.

And why is this? Consider this explanation for the existence of water:

These calculations for oxygen and hydrogen are not randomly determined. It's no coincidence that oxygen has six electrons and two hydrogen atoms can make up this deficit. Thanks to the atoms' mutual harmony, water—the most essential substance for life—is created. Allah determines these proportions and creates stable, harmonious atoms and water. This is openly revealed in the following verse:

We send forth the pollinating winds and send down water from the sky and give it to you to drink. And it is not you who keep its stores. (Surat al-Hijr: 22)

So... we don't have money to spend in NASA for going to the moon, but we have enough to spend to make these scientific nobodies feel good about themselves? Welcome to the National Apperances and Self-esteem Administration.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

How do you know?

Have you analyzed your electricity bills before and after installing the solar hot water system? How much did the system cost to install? How long until your break even point? Did you factor in the time value of money?.

Yes, I know the heat pump hot water heater payed out quicker than the solar did. And I did all the work myself so that wasn't taken into consideration. The Heat pump cost me 800 for the pump and fittings needed to install, saved 35 bucks the first month on electricity. It not only provides hot water but also some limited air conditioning but more importantly dehumidification in my basement. Add in what it would cost to buy a dehumidifier and the electricity to run it. I didn't consider time value of money.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Yes, I know the heat pump hot water heater payed out quicker than the solar did. And I did all the work myself so that wasn't taken into consideration. The Heat pump cost me 800 for the pump and fittings needed to install, saved 35 bucks the first month on electricity. It not only provides hot water but also some limited air conditioning but more importantly dehumidification in my basement. Add in what it would cost to buy a dehumidifier and the electricity to run it. I didn't consider time value of money.

That's not half bad for a residential payback.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

That's not half bad for a residential payback.

The price of the unit has gone up considerably since I bought it. Its made locally to me which is another good thing IMHO. Here is what they offer now.
http://www.northrdt.com/Geyser/index.html

its totally different than mine. Much easier to install, mine required an electrician( I happen to be one so.. ), now its pretty much plug and play if you can handle a pipe wrench and few fittings

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Yes, I know the heat pump hot water heater payed out quicker than the solar did. And I did all the work myself so that wasn't taken into consideration. The Heat pump cost me 800 for the pump and fittings needed to install, saved 35 bucks the first month on electricity. It not only provides hot water but also some limited air conditioning but more importantly dehumidification in my basement. Add in what it would cost to buy a dehumidifier and the electricity to run it. I didn't consider time value of money.

So it sounds like the actual answer is "no, I don't know how much the solar hot water system saved me, but look at this great heat pump." Which would be part of the efficiency upgrades to houses that I believe are far more important to invest in than solar projects - see my very first post on this topic (#6 in this thread), where I specifically mentioned that paying to upgrade household hot water heaters would be a good idea.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Here's the challenge for you - name for me one single scientific breakthrough to come out of the Islamic world since... oh, I don' t know... the dawn of Islam...

It's like giving an award to red states that still teach science. You know most of them are going to think water is baby Jesus' tears, but we may as well encourage the one in a hundred who has an inkling.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The one time I bother to check and see what Kepler has to say and it's still blind hate. I guess nothing really changes.

EDIT: I probably should, at least, clarify that there were some contributions to science from the Islamic world between the 8th century and the 13th century, especially in optics, chemistry, and physics, but... it's been a good 800 years or so since we've seen anything decent. It's OK. Hug!

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

How do you know?

Have you analyzed your electricity bills before and after installing the solar hot water system? How much did the system cost to install? How long until your break even point? Did you factor in the time value of money?

You may not care enough to calculate those things for your little house project, but believe me that a utility will have to do all those things before deciding to invest in a large-scale alternative energy project.

I've done a few solar domestic hot water projects. They are particularly cost effective in Wisconsin due to government give-backs through Focus on Energy. Less so in Minnesota where you just get some breaks from the utility (due to regulatory impairments for the rebate programs). In 'Sconny on a large nursing home project the solar payback (with subsidy) is about 7 years. In Minnesota it is more like 12 years.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Of course that thought process works for the technologies that are in use today - those are the very technologies that won out in the marketplace BECAUSE they could be made more cheaply. You have the cause and effect 100% reversed. If someone developed an amazing technology 40 years ago that couldn't be made cheaply enough to sell for a profit, guess what? It won't be in use today. You're self-selecting for marketplace winners and ignoring the plethora of marketplace losers that have perished on the vine.

And it is not just a matter of time for solar. Even if we had 100% efficient cells (not a chance) that could be manufactured nearly for free (not a chance), solar is still too expensive by virtue of the real estate required, the backup and storage systems needed, the maintenance, etc. to put a dent into the US electricity market as a whole. Solar is just too diffuse and too unreliable (night and weather) as a source, and no amount of technology at any price is going to change that fact.

Not every technology is a winner to be sure. With technology, its less the cost of that technology...and more the value it provides. Technology can drive exponential improvements in quality and efficiency of its application when its important. I can't even imagine the strides in PC chip efficiency or medical advances in the last 30 years...1000x improvement? 1000000x? The value of the PC swamped any technology costs. Technological products that fail (ie kitchen smart appliances) rather are companies trying to make a buck off by forcing an existing technology into an area with little value add to peoples lives.

I and many are of the opinion that the value of solar is there...the ability to create energy from for all practical purposes nothing. And if that's true, solar costing little money or real estate is not too far off.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Skipping the Muslim boogeymen of the last millenia stupidity posted by Tweedle Dee, Tweedle Dum and another wannabee...

Lyhan, how will you know if the technologies will never work if the country doesn't make the effort to develop them? Landing on the moon probably seemed like a pretty far off goal during the 20th century, but 66 years after manned flight was invented, a man walked on the moon (and it was that dastardy gubmint that put him there). That's what I call technological advancement.

Now to answer your question about real estate, power storage and transmission, I would first point to sparsely populated states like Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico for a massive solar power project. Just put panels up in the whole freakin state except for a couple of cities. What will most likely cost money is transferring the power to the population centers of the region (in this case California I'd imagine). Storage of electricity is a problem, but I'd like to see some govt grants to the MIT's of the world to work on developing this needed technology. I believe the feds own huge swaths of Nevada real estate. Guess where those solar panel...farms I guess...ought to go? You could also consider obsolete military bases.

Beyond that, I don't expect large scale solar power in Minnesota or in Maine (props to walrus for posting his info - very informative). That's why power generation needs to have a regional component to it. Aside from the Hoover Dam, hydro in the west is going to be tough do to the scarcity of water. Wind power isn't going to work in a lot of inland places. However, it needs to be used in Massachusetts (where a project finally got approval after 10 years of idiocy) for example. Huge natural gas deposits have been found roughly following the Appalachians from New York to Georgia. Guess where those states should be getting their energy from?

The only entity to coordinate all this is the feds. One more example. T. Boone Pickens (a guy I consider to be scum, but regardless) has a proposal that if you outfitted all US trucks to run on natural gas, you'd cut our foreign oil dependence by a huge amount (exact % I need to look up). That's something that needs to be pursued to see if its actually feasible. If it is, lets go for it. We just can't produce oil as cheaply as a country where its lying 2 inches below the sand. We never will be able to. However, if we can get to a point where other energy production is comparable to using oil, the Iranians and other dictatorships of the world with oil are officially screwed. Not sure why we wouldn't want to make that happen.

 

[Sloe Gin]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

to all you morons that want solar...it's the same concept as nuclear. Oh everyone wants it, just not in their backyard. There's millions of acres in California that were going to be used for solar power, but oh no. Barbara Boxer assembled a task force that determined there was some sort of groundhog that would be disrupted by planting these solar panels there. Of course, as soon as it was killed by Barbara Boxer, she turned around and blamed Bush for not wanting green technology.

All you dems need to wake the *k up and point fingers at your own *king party. Quit saying we should do this and take some *king initiative.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

to all you morons that want solar...it's the same concept as nuclear. Oh everyone wants it, just not in their backyard.

I'll take either or in my backyard. I'll take hydro, geothermal, solar, wind, biomass, oil, coal, gas, nuclear, the whole nine. In my backyard, in everyone's backyard. Energy where we can find it, domestically.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

to all you morons that want solar...it's the same concept as nuclear. Oh everyone wants it, just not in their backyard. There's millions of acres in California that were going to be used for solar power, but oh no. Barbara Boxer assembled a task force that determined there was some sort of groundhog that would be disrupted by planting these solar panels there. Of course, as soon as it was killed by Barbara Boxer, she turned around and blamed Bush for not wanting green technology.

All you dems need to wake the *k up and point fingers at your own *king party. Quit saying we should do this and take some *king initiative.

The Democrats have only had Congressional control for about 4 years now, and Presidential control for two.

The Republicans had Congressional control from 1994 to 2006 and Presidential control from 2000-2008.

I say a pox on both their houses. But, if you think the party who generally isn't in power and the party who is the most spineless when they are in power is the one killing energy policy in this country, well then more power to you.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The Democrats have only had Congressional control for about 4 years now, and Presidential control for two.

The Republicans had Congressional control from 1994 to 2006 and Presidential control from 2000-2008.

I say a pox on both their houses. But, if you think the party who generally isn't in power and the party who is the most spineless when they are in power is the one killing energy policy in this country, well then more power to you.

If nothing else, everyone needs to appreciate the irony of how Scoobs worded this.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I intented to finally get back on that little government/corporation thing that was happening at the end of the last thread, but never had the time to properly respond over the holiday weekend.

I think the territory was well covered enough that I don't need to add much.

Bakunin took the most extreme version of a totalitarian government and argued that a corporation can't possibly match that level of corruption and control. I can't really argue against that, it being such an extreme statement.

Others did a good job pointing out that corporations don't have to go that far to make our lives miserable, rightfully pointing out several ways that they do so already (wild overuse of credit and their ability to hit you hard on your credit report for minor indescretions) or how our current government doesn't come anywhere near the level of totalitarianism that Bakunin covered.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

to all you morons that want solar...it's the same concept as nuclear. Oh everyone wants it, just not in their backyard. There's millions of acres in California that were going to be used for solar power, but oh no. Barbara Boxer assembled a task force that determined there was some sort of groundhog that would be disrupted by planting these solar panels there. Of course, as soon as it was killed by Barbara Boxer, she turned around and blamed Bush for not wanting green technology.

All you dems need to wake the *k up and point fingers at your own *king party. Quit saying we should do this and take some *king initiative.

Settle down angry little man. We're trying to keep it an adult conversation over here.

As Red Cloud just wrote correctly (akkk, ptewey, did I just write that?) I'm all for solar, wind, nuclear near me. In fact, a nuclear plant isn't too far away, and wind power is coming to the coast of my state. To that end, I've written letters and supported elected officials who supported the aforementioned wind project.

Never heard of the Boxer thing. Anyway, that's why the feds need to step in. Especially when the proposal is on federal lands. I can certainly see giving lots of local input to building a nuclear power plant nearby, but I don't think the terrorists will try to blow up solar panels. Nor windmills, for that matter....

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Others did a good job pointing out that corporations don't have to go that far to make our lives miserable, rightfully pointing out several ways that they do so already (wild overuse of credit and their ability to hit you hard on your credit report for minor indescretions) or how our current government doesn't come anywhere near the level of totalitarianism that Bakunin covered.

You're missing the key point here - corporations really can't make your life miserable without your consent. You have to choose to spend your money (or your credit) with them before they can do anything to you.

They can hit you hard on your credit report for "minor indescretions [sic]?" Whose fault would those indiscretions be, theirs?

Government, however, can indeed make your life miserable, whether you voted (for or against them) or not.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I say a pox on both their houses. But, if you think the party who generally isn't in power and the party who is the most spineless when they are in power is the one killing energy policy in this country, well then more power to you.

I think part of the problem is that neither party, nor the President, has effectively articulated an energy policy or plan to address their vision, beyond "green jobs", "national security", etc. It's nice to trot out the newest solar project or oil find for the masses, but how do they affect the larger game plan?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Government, however, can indeed make your life miserable, whether you voted (for or against them) or not.

Meh. We're comparing vastly different evils here.

On the other hand, you (theoretically) have a say in government at the poll booth. You don't really have the same amount of say when it comes to the people in charge of your bank. Even as a shareholder of said bank, the amount of say you have in it is on par with your say in government as a voter.