Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Which they just screwed you over with, as they're talking about the need for a strong government.

They are talking how to run the gov't. It says nothing about the need for an all powerful central gov't.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

None of the founding fathers would remotely recognize the monstrosity that the federal government has become. No way, no how.

And most of them wouldn't be "pure" enough to hold national office in either major party.

 

[Slap Shot]

You're fighting a hopeless battle. Nuance is lost on these people. Revisionist history more and more predominates.

None of the founding fathers would remotely recognize the monstrosity that the federal government has become. No way, no how.

Clearly you missed Kep's most recent post.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Clearly you missed Kep's most recent post.

No.

 

[Slap Shot]

No.

Ah, then you're being intentionally obtuse.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

So a bunch of white, land owning slave owners wouldn't recognize the current government...I'm weeping. They would recognize anything...the world has changed and unlike Europe we embraced that change. Christ you think any of them would believe there was a black president, women justices on the SCOTUS..etc?

I love the deification of the FF...like they are the epitome of grace and knowledge. They couldn't agree on anything ever yet supposedly none of them wanted anything but strong states rights. Even though that very thought flies in the face of over 200 years of recorded history apparently that is the truth now. I'm sure Texas will include that in their new textbooks that won't include the word slavery!

But I'm sure the arguments between Adams and Jefferson were about wig choice not how one believed in one type of government and the other a different type

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Ah, then you're being intentionally obtuse.

No.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Three of them wrote their beliefs into the Federalist Papers at great length, and there are also a lot of notes from the Philadelphia Convention. There was actually a lot of variance in the Founders' positions, and partisans today cherry-pick quotes or even play "who gets to be called a Founder." Suffice that all the debates we are having today about the pros and cons of strong central government have been continuous for 234 years, and even back in the day it was an even split. One might even say there was a relative bias in favor of central control, since the whole point of revising the Articles of Confederation was that the experiment of having a weak federal government and strong states had been tried and had failed.

A central government, yes, but not an overly strong one. And not an even split back in the day, at least among the most well known founders who for the most part feared the dangers of a strong central government.

 

[Jon]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

No.

Ah, then you're being intentionally obtuse.

No.

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[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

A central government, yes, but not an overly strong one. And not an even split back in the day, at least among the most well known founders who for the most part feared the dangers of a strong central government.

Founding fathers also never predicted the mammoth geographic size, population, technology and complexity of modern society.

Whatever you believe in adjusting the fed govt up or down somewhat...its working with a vastly different playing field.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

A central government, yes, but not an overly strong one. And not an even split back in the day, at least among the most well known founders who for the most part feared the dangers of a strong central government.

They feared a king, A LOT (so much for the theory of the unitary executive, Justices Roberts and soon-to-be Justice Kagan). They feared one of the branches overwhelming the others. This is fantastic discussion of the intellectual roots of the revolution.

The main point is in the Founders' republic, 90% of the population lived on farms and the largest city was half the current size of St. Cloud. Increased complexity and density has given rise to a lot of additional pressures on both commerce and government. An "Originalist" philosophy with respect to commerce would obviously be unworkable.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Founding fathers also never predicted the mammoth geographic size, population, technology and complexity of modern society.

At least one did, and he wasn't thrilled.

"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"I consider the class of artificers [i.e., manufacturers] as the panders of vice and the instruments by which the liberties of a country are generally overturned." --Thomas Jefferson to John Jay, 1785. ME 5:94, Papers 8:426

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816. FE 10:69

"The selfish spirit of commerce... knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain." --Thomas Jefferson to Larkin Smith, 1809. ME 12:272

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816. FE 10:69


"The selfish spirit of commerce... knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain." --Thomas Jefferson to Larkin Smith, 1809. ME 12:272

He was obviously a Communist.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

At least one did, and he wasn't thrilled.

Quote:
"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

Las Vegas

Quote:
"I consider the class of artificers [i.e., manufacturers] as the panders of vice and the instruments by which the liberties of a country are generally overturned." --Thomas Jefferson to John Jay, 1785. ME 5:94, Papers 8:426

BMW

Quote:
"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816. FE 10:69

Goldman Sachs

Quote:
"The selfish spirit of commerce... knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain." --Thomas Jefferson to Larkin Smith, 1809. ME 12:272

AIG

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And then there's this from Jefferson:

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

How long was Thomas Jefferson a politician? At how many levels of government? The odds of him saying contradictory things at different points of his career are pretty high...or things that seem contradictory 200+ years later.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

This is all hearsay. You people can't prove this so-called "Jefferson" ever walked on this earth, let alone read his mind 200 years later. Plus, if he had been a real person he would have been an idiot compared to the more advanced species we are today. We have "American Idol" and MLE!

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And then there's this from Jefferson:

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

As much as I admire Jefferson, the guy died seriously in debt and didn't live by his own advice in that regard. I think if he were alive, he'd be a good Libertarian candidate.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And then there's this from Jefferson:

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

Good. Then quit taxing wages, and tax the hell out of inherited wealth and capitol gains.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/98042584.html

I don't know if I should be surprised or not...

Florida Gov calls special session to get a constitutional ban on offshore drilling off of florida put on the ballot.