Obama V: For Vendetta

[French Rage]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

There's just one problem - your "small small minority" on your side are the people with the power. Obama telling "those who made this mess" (like it was our personal problem) to "stop talking." Pelosi starting this whole Nazi nonsense by saying the opposition "carried swaztikas." Pelosi and Hoyer calling the opposition "un-American" (fire up HUAC again, woo!). And the coup de grace, SEIU, the union which said it was "proud" to have spent $60 million electing Obama and committed itself to his causes, turning out thugs in uniform to intimidate and in one case, assault the opposition.

And your main concern is the "small small minority" which recommends taking measures in self-defense rather than backing down from their cause.

And while your small minority may not be in power, as the right has decided less people in power, they certainly have put themselves at the forefront of these "debates", be it encouraging their listeners to go and raise as much hell as possible and repeating crap like forced euthanization for seniors. Neither side has exactly encouraged its reasonable people to take charge here, despite the fact there are many reasonable folks on both sides who could have a meaningful debate if they wanted, so neither side can exactly claim the high road at this juncture.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Before the PC police jumps me, I'm just saying French Rage does seem to have at least cognitive reasoning in her head - I'm not saying that quality is rare in women or anything like that. So calm down.

Heck, I didn't even realize you meant me, I thought you meant Pelosi. I forget you had added the whole me being a woman shtick to your routine. Try the veal folks!

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I forget you had added the whole me being a woman shtick to your routine.

Routine? First you tell me your name is Rachel, which at first I figured you were kidding, then you say you're a woman, to which I respond that I always thought you were a dude and you didn't say anything. So I put two and two together and figured I had been mistaken.

So which is it?

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

And while your small minority may not be in power, as the right has decided less people in power, they certainly have put themselves at the forefront of these "debates", be it encouraging their listeners to go and raise as much hell as possible and repeating crap like forced euthanization for seniors. Neither side has exactly encouraged its reasonable people to take charge here, despite the fact there are many reasonable folks on both sides who could have a meaningful debate if they wanted, so neither side can exactly claim the high road at this juncture.

Does it really matter at this point what the minority wants? Obama can push this thing thru no matter what. He has the votes. Why are there so misconceptions out there(if their are?) and why isn't it being explained better

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Routine? First you tell me your name is Rachel, which at first I figured you were kidding, then you say you're a woman, to which I respond that I always thought you were a dude and you didn't say anything. So I put two and two together and figured I had been mistaken.

So which is it?

(OK I can't tell if we're still goofing on this or not but what they hey. I recall you using a woman's name on me, which I took as a jab since you clearly knew I'm of the masculine gender, so I figured the better way to respond was instead of getting offended and giving you a reaction to claim you had the wrong female name. I musta missed where you responded saying you thought I was a guy. Or you know I was joking and this was all still part of the bit. Anyways, I don't know or care anymore, but yes I'm a guy. )

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Thanks!

But not limited to one side:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...ourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php



http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...phone-call-involving-the-second-amendment.php



Both sides have more than their share of *******s who are content with causing crap and not seeing anything of value happening.

Why even post links to/about the fringe elements like this guy in New Mexico? We all know both the left and the right have them. Why add fuel to the fire by placing guilty by association labels to everyone on both sides?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

( Anyways, I don't know or care anymore, but yes I'm a guy. )

OK, I'll go with that then and humbly apologize for getting confused on the matter.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Why even post links to/about the fringe elements like this guy in New Mexico? We all know both the left and the right have them. Why add fuel to the fire by placing guilty by association labels to everyone on both sides?

Well we needed SOMETHING to talkabout today.

OK, I'll go with that then and humbly apologize for getting confused on the matter.

No worries, my bad for being a little too coy and missing the chances to clear up confusion.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I think we can all be happy that, despite juvenile protests at health care forums, the public still prefers Democrats in charge....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/10/democrats.poll/index.html

 

[Slap Shot]

I think we can all be happy that, despite juvenile protests at health care forums, the public still prefers Democrats in charge....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/10/democrats.poll/index.html

Which at present is far more important than the content of the health care reform bill.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Does it really matter at this point what the minority wants? Obama can push this thing thru no matter what. He has the votes. Why are there so misconceptions out there(if their are?) and why isn't it being explained better

I don't think he has the votes yet. The moderate Senate Dems could be put off either by the eventual bill's deficiencies, expense, or complexity, the sincere protesters could put a dent in general public support, or proponents could be heavy handed. Remember when the immigration bill was a done deal?

"Let fury have the hour / anger can be power / do you know that you can use it?"

 

[Jon]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Good thing you don't live in Maine. I knew all kinds of folks who carry, Never felt threatened by it.

Yet another bad sign for Tim Whitehead.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Does it really matter at this point what the minority wants? Obama can push this thing thru no matter what. He has the votes. Why are there so misconceptions out there(if their are?) and why isn't it being explained better

As for the mass confusion, as I understand it there are still 5 different committee versions of health care reform... so nobody can really explain one plan without contradicting an alternative plan. The misconceptions (if they are) occur when Beck, or Palin, or some other windbag pulls out a detail from one of these potential plans and applies some dramatic interpretation to make the people gasp loudly and run to WalMart for more ammo.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

As for the mass confusion, as I understand it there are still 5 different committee versions of health care reform... so nobody can really explain one plan without contradicting an alternative plan. The misconceptions (if they are) occur when Beck, or Palin, or some other windbag pulls out a detail from one of these potential plans and applies some dramatic interpretation to make the people gasp loudly and run to WalMart for more ammo.

if the dem's argument was so air tight and they had their pulse on the right idea for public policy this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is neither is the case regardless of your hate for certain segments of our population.

Bottom line... the argument, the idea, and all other parts have major problems and its all stuffed into a 1000 page omnibus document which is full of landmines and hidden tricks. With a 1000 page bill you don't need to change between bills and most of the citations have been for the one bill. Of course, you'd never believe that it might actually be what people say it is... after-all we have others we trust to distill this information for us... and they already came to their conclusion.

Its not "oh, my, those stupid people just don't understand"... wrong... your side failed at presenting an argument which passes muster. Its ethically wrong, anti-personal freedom, and its far more expensive than we can afford as a nation. If this isn't true then you should be able to argue otherwise.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

if the dem's argument was so air tight and they had their pulse on the right idea for public policy this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is neither is the case regardless of your hate for certain segments of our population.

Bottom line... the argument, the idea, and all other parts have major problems and its all stuffed into a 1000 page omnibus document which is full of landmines and hidden tricks. With a 1000 page bill you don't need to change between bills and most of the citations have been for the one bill. Of course, you'd never believe that it might actually be what people say it is... after-all we have others we trust to distill this information for us... and they already came to their conclusion.

Its not "oh, my, those stupid people just don't understand"... wrong... your side failed at presenting an argument which passes muster. Its ethically wrong, anti-personal freedom, and its far more expensive than we can afford as a nation. If this isn't true then you should be able to argue otherwise.

It's not "my side". I disapprove of government power grabs as much as you do. I'm saying the reason it is such a messed up debate is because there is no one, clear plan to talk about so nobody knows whats a rumor and what might one day be passed into law. My "hatred" is toward windbags of all varieties who are self-serving, selfrighteous, uncaring idiots from the aforementioned Beck and Palin to Pelosi and Obama. Especially Pelosi, who in a reasonable world would already be locked away in a straitjacket where she couldn't do any more damage.
Either that, or it's getting late.

 

[Slap Shot]

Bottom line... the argument, the idea, and all other parts have major problems and its all stuffed into a 1000 page omnibus document which is full of landmines and hidden tricks. With a 1000 page bill you don't need to change between bills and most of the citations have been for the one bill. Of course, you'd never believe that it might actually be what people say it is... after-all we have others we trust to distill this information for us... and they already came to their conclusion.

It's not "my side". I disapprove of government power grabs as much as you do. I'm saying the reason it is such a messed up debate is because there is no one, clear plan to talk about so nobody knows whats a rumor and what might one day be passed into law.

Including Patman, despite his claims the bills are riddled with hidden trapdoors that he can't name. Of course hyperbole is easier than simply stating what is wrong with the bill(s), of which there are actual legitimate concerns.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Including Patman, despite his claims the bills are riddled with hidden trapdoors that he can't name. Of course hyperbole is easier than simply stating what is wrong with the bill(s), of which there are actual legitimate concerns.

Don't you think that past experiences with these huge bills would lead one to believe that crap is going to get hidden in there? Seems to happen quite often why would this bill be an exception?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

if the dem's argument was so air tight and they had their pulse on the right idea for public policy this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is neither is the case regardless of your hate for certain segments of our population.

Bottom line... the argument, the idea, and all other parts have major problems and its all stuffed into a 1000 page omnibus document which is full of landmines and hidden tricks. With a 1000 page bill you don't need to change between bills and most of the citations have been for the one bill. Of course, you'd never believe that it might actually be what people say it is... after-all we have others we trust to distill this information for us... and they already came to their conclusion.

Its not "oh, my, those stupid people just don't understand"... wrong... your side failed at presenting an argument which passes muster.

These are all very good points. It's particularly worrisome that the people signing off on the legislation don't understand / haven't read it. I don't mean the members -- most of them are hood ornaments and always have been. I mean member staff and committee staff, the people who actually matter. It's just too complex, even for them.

Its (1) ethically wrong, (2) anti-personal freedom, and its far (3) more expensive than we can afford as a nation. If this isn't true then you should be able to argue otherwise.

These are all debatable. (1) What do you mean? Are the alternatives somehow ethically "right"? From what I understand -- not much -- it's a situation in which a lot of different ethical issues conflict and we have to make choices. (2) Again, what do you mean? There are both positive and negative practical limitations on personal freedom, and in the same way you could say the failure to provide insurance and a minimal standard of care to a large number of citizens is also anti-personal freedom. For that matter, the corporate model of profit-driven care rationing isn't really something I'd enshrine as a vital freedom when compared with, say, basic health needs. (3) This is probably the most likely statement, although it's difficult to criticize the proposals for having an unknown price tag and then also say they are too expensive. There may be cost control as the administration claims, although like you what I've seen seems like smoke and mirrors -- I mean, automation and interconnectivity of record systems? A needed improvement, yes, but every new system implementation I've ever been part of has cost more, not less. This will come down to a political fight over whether the country wants to allocate resources this way -- same as welfare, wars of choice, tax cuts, etc. Being in the red does not stop the government from spending.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Don't you think that past experiences with these huge bills would lead one to believe that crap is going to get hidden in there? Seems to happen quite often why would this bill be an exception?

Yes. This happens to all bills. The way you get members to vote is to include goodies for them. Legislation is legalized graft, while political contributions are legalized bribery. That's what you get when a group is allowed to define its own ethics rules (c.f. deregulation of S&Ls, banks, brokerage houses, etc).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Yes. This happens to all bills. The way you get members to vote is to include goodies for them. Legislation is legalized graft, while political contributions are legalized bribery. That's what you get when a group is allowed to define its own ethics rules (c.f. deregulation of S&Ls, banks, brokerage houses, etc).

Heh. I'm reading "The Fate of Africa" which deals with politics across all African nations since the end of the colonial era in the 1950s. I'm still not sure who's worse - kleptocrats such as Mobutu, Bongo, and Amin or our own superstar pork barrelers Kennedy, Byrd, and Stevens...

(just kidding....mostly)