Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Every time I read this thread, I just can't help thinking:

Cut the union's wages, and you balance the budget for a year - cut the union's CB rights, and you balance the budget for a lifetime.

Liberals complain that the governor doesn't really care about the money, he just wants to bust the union. That argument could easily be turned around - what are benefit negotiating rights for if not for getting more $$$ out of taxpayers' pockets?

Teachers unions, like all other unions, are concerned with increasing their membership (and thus their political power), plus improving the wages, benefits and working conditions for their members. Nothing wrong with that in the abstract, this is what unions are for. The problem is when unions act like these concerns are somehow directly related to improving the quality of education our kids receive. "If we'd only pay 'em more, give 'em more break time and improve the food in the teacher's cafeteria, they'd do a better job for our kids." Why one major union even tries to disguise its purpose by calling itself the "National Education Association." Really? Sounds like a non profit dedicated to making our schools better instead of a gd union, working for the goals I outlined above. None of this is true and never will be. An incompetent teacher doesn't become Mr. Chips by giving him a raise or a better pension plan or making it next to impossible to fire him.

 

[TimP]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Moving from the general to the specific, nearly two thirds of students fail to graduate from high school in Milwaukee. While there are doubtless many factors involved, teachers must take some of the blame for that appalling failure.

What do you expect from some backward hicks with no social skills who all marry their sisters? That's why every day I thank the Aqua Buddha that I was born in Massachusetts.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

**** NO! I want them to work for pennies and I want to be able to fire them if they displease me in anyway. Minimum wage? **** that! Safety standards? **** that!

Keep your gov't out of my medicare!

Yeah, there are only two options, unions or work in substandard conditions for pennies....that is the same tactic they use on SS (you'll have old people eating dog food as they freeze to death; the military, if we cut the military we'll all be speaking chinese in 6 months etc.)

If unions represent a small percentage of American workers, are you saying all the rest of them have no safety standards, work for pennies etc?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Yeah, there are only two options, unions or work in substandard conditions for pennies....that is the same tactic they use on SS (you'll have old people eating dog food as they freeze to death; the military, if we cut the military we'll all be speaking chinese in 6 months etc.)

If unions represent a small percentage of American workers, are you saying all the rest of them have no safety standards, work for pennies etc?

It's called "The Washington Monument Game." If we cut taxes one more penny "we'll have to close the Washington Monument," etc etc. Meanwhile, funds can always be found for the "Robert Byrd Memorial Klan Picnic Pavilion and Skating Rink."

Meanwhile, one of the most prominent union goons finds nothing wrong with the "tone" of the demonstrations in Madison. Quelle surprise.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...condemn-comparisons-wisconsins-walker-hitler/

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm - more evidence that public school teachers are doing pretty well overall (I'm sure someone will claim the BLS data is somehow biased and hours aren't properly counted, etc).

Pretty good info. But it does downplay both the importance of teachers and the difficulty of the job. Try teaching 5 courses of 30 kids each, every day (to say nothing of being answerable to their parents)...I'd wager its a bit more difficult than sitting behind a PC all day and probably on par with the stress of the average corporate executive.

Teachers earn every penny...I'm happy to have whatever talent we can get into those positions.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Pretty good info. But it does downplay both the importance of teachers and the difficulty of the job. Try teaching 5 courses of 30 kids each, every day (to say nothing of being answerable to their parents)...I'd wager its a bit more difficult than sitting behind a PC all day and probably on par with the stress of the average corporate executive.

Teachers earn every penny...I'm happy to have whatever talent we can get into those positions.

SOME teachers earn every penny. Others, like the incompetent slugs in NYC, report everyday to "rubber rooms" where they're paid full salary and benefits as they while away their days with their lap tops and i pads, making off track bets, surfing the net, doing crosswords and all the rest. They are waiting as the city slogs through the nearly impenetrable red tape to get them fired. Private sector employees would be long gone, instantly gone. But not these "educators." Some of them actually wind up retiring before the city can get them fired.
Oh yeah, these are the noble teachers we remember from our childhoods. Mr. Chips, where are you when we need you?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

You cannot make blanket claims of how difficult it is to be a teacher compared to say an engineer or a midlevel corporate manager. Depending on the company/role/school district, the job can be relatively easy or extremely difficult. In the case of teaching, I'd imagine the toughest situation would be a classroom full of ill-prepared / unmotivated / disruptive students, while the easiest would be advanced high school coursework such as calculus - not because the subject matter is easier to teach than something like pre-algebra, but because the students taking such a class are very likely to be intelligent and highly-motivated.

Since there's really no way to account for all of these things, the simplest and most effective tool of comparison is to simply come up with an hourly rate that these jobs pay people with similar educational backgrounds. And on that basis, teachers come out ahead - way ahead if you believe their hours aren't underrepresented relative to the other occupations, and slightly ahead if you believe their hours *are* underrepresented.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Across the state, record numbers of public employees are requesting retirement papers. Many, like Donnelly, have been advised that if they don't get out quickly, they stand to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in benefits they were counting on for retirement.

The effect on the state could be devastating. The number of people retiring from the public sector in the next two weeks could easily dwarf the 12,000 lay-offs the governor has threatened, if Senate Democrats don't return to pass his bill ending collective bargaining for public employees.

The Wisconsin Department of Employee Trust Funds reports that, during the week of February 14-18, 2011, it received more than three times the number of requests for retirement estimates than it did the same week in 2010.

At the top of the Department web site is a special link for state and local employees: "Retiring on Short Notice? What Members Should Know and Do."

The volume of requests for information is so high, the web site notes, that it is having trouble keeping up with demand.

Or, as Steve Phillips, a colleague of Donnelly's in the appellate division of the public defender's office put it, "You'd have to be an idiot to go into public service now--or be independently wealthy."

"I've been with the state for 33 years and that whole time I've been planning for a pension and we've been negotiating contracts," Phillips says. "Compared to the private sector, our base pay is much less and partly that's because we get decent benefits."

"[T]here are no assurances that, as of March 13, 2011, the SHI benefit will be available under the terms of the current colective bargaining agreement. . . . The worst case scenario is tha WSAA members would lose that benefit both retrospectively and prospectively on that date."

That is because the union contract terminates on March 13. Workers had to give notice 14 days before March 13 or risk losing health care benefits in retirement they had been counting on throughout their careers.

Another memo, from the state's Office of State Employment Relations--http://oser.state.wi.us/ sought to reassure employees that the state was only studying the issue of changing retirement benefits and that employees need not worry that they would lose benefits.

The lawyers at Jenna's were not reassured. "I didn't want to gamble on these guys' good faith," says Donnelly.

"Who trusts them?" says Phillips. "By the time we find out what they are planning, we won't be covered by a collective bargaining agreement."

And that's not the only threat.

"If you think the budget repair bill is bad, wait until the Governor's biennial budget comes out," says Phillips.

On a list of frequently asked questions the Department of Employee Trust Funds includes this question: "There has been a lot of media coverage about the funding of pension systems across the nation. Is the WRS [Wisconsin Retirement System] fully funded and able to pay benefits? Yes, the WRS is fully funded and able to pay benefits to current and future WRS members."

In fact, Wisconsin is a national model for its fully funded pension system, which segregates the funds so they can't be raided as has happened in private sector firms and other states. But some analysts are worried that Scott Walker's budget repair bill may change all that.

Blogger Kristen Emery points to what she calls a "pension theft provision" in Walker's bill:

On page three of the bill, "third paragraph from the top, there is very interesting language that leads to the very important question for Governor Walker. The paragraph mandates that a study of the existing Wisconsin Retirement System be performed and it must “specifically address establishing a defined contribution plan as an option for WRS participating employees” and the deadline for completing this study is June 30, 2012. I don’t think that Walker would be adding retirement benefits for workers - so I am wondering if the Republican Governors that are trying to get rid of collective bargaining of retirement benefits, so that they can terminate the existing plans and recover excess assets for their state balance sheets.

"If Governor Walker’s bill passes, and collective bargaining of retirement benefits is eliminated, then next year when Governor Walker decides it is in Wisconsin’s best interests to get rid of the existing plan and replace it with something less valuable for the employees. And the employees would have no say and no one can keep Walker from raiding your retirement savings."

Link

Here's an idea: Why don't all of you who think the state workers are getting a fair deal go work for the state in Wisconsin? Sounds like there will be plenty of openings.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I think it's awesome that people are retiring. More jobs for people who actually care about them. I mean, if you're a 55 year old teacher that's more worried about preserving your swanky benefits package than teaching kids, good freaking riddance to you.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I think it's awesome that people are retiring. More jobs for people who actually care about them. I mean, if you're a 55 year old teacher that's more worried about preserving your swanky benefits package than teaching kids, good freaking riddance to you.

"Swanky"?

Of course, a CEO has a threadbare retirement package.

Edit: So if you pay into a 401(k) for 20 years and are counting on that money for retirement, you're fine with your broker taking your money away and telling you to go pound sand? In that case, I'll handle your retirement funds for you!

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

"Swanky"?

Of course, a CEO has a threadbare retirement package.

Yes, a public worker's retirement package is generally much more generous than a comparable private workers.

A CEO's retirement package is utterly and completely irrelevant here.

I have a few friends and family members who would absolutely leap at the chance to get a deal like public employees get, or even to have a job at all. Hopefully these early retirements enable them to do so.

If all this bill accomplishes is replacing 50+ year old teachers with younger, more motivated ones, it's already a winner.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I love that experience means nothing.

I also love that teachers are the only public employees we have.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I also love that teachers are the only public employees we have.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

At any rate, the same logic applies to other public employees. Totally their right to retire- I might too if I was in their position. At the same time, I'm sure as heck not crying for them. We have enough unemployed people in this state who would leap at the chance to take their jobs- and they will.

 

[walrus]

I love that experience means nothing.

I also love that teachers are the only public employees we have.

Teachers are free to quit any time they want
They can retire and take another job in the public or private sector, it's up to them. I won't feel bad either way

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

At any rate, the same logic applies to other public employees. Totally their right to retire- I might too if I was in their position. At the same time, I'm sure as heck not crying for them. We have enough unemployed people in this state who would leap at the chance to take their jobs- and they will.

You said,

If all this bill accomplishes is replacing 50+ year old teachers with younger, more motivated ones, it's already a winner.

Which is not all that bill has accomplished, as revealed by the story.

Maybe you missed my edit:

Edit: So if you pay into a 401(k) for 20 years and are counting on that money for retirement, you're fine with your broker taking your money away and telling you to go pound sand? In that case, I'll handle your retirement funds for you!

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Edit: So if you pay into a 401(k) for 20 years and are counting on that money for retirement, you're fine with your broker taking your money away and telling you to go pound sand? In that case, I'll handle your retirement funds for you!

Right, but that isn't what's happening. This bill doesn't touch retirement benefits already saved. It impacts the employee contribution for the future. If people want to retire in the face of that, good riddance to them. There's plenty of people waiting to replace them.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I love that experience means nothing.

I also love that teachers are the only public employees we have.

That's okay. Everybody in the private sector is a CEO (according to you).

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Right, but that isn't what's happening. This bill doesn't touch retirement benefits already saved. It impacts the employee contribution for the future. If people want to retire in the face of that, good riddance to them. There's plenty of people waiting to replace them.

Except that isn't the case. If the CBA goes away, the governor can decide to raid the fund to balance the budget. The memo from the law firm warns that it can be done retroactively, meaning all the money they've paid into the system disappears.

Do you honestly believe he won't if given that chance? Would you trust him if you were a state worker?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

You cannot make blanket claims of how difficult it is to be a teacher compared to say an engineer or a midlevel corporate manager.

Since there's really no way to account for all of these things, the simplest and most effective tool of comparison is to simply come up with an hourly rate that these jobs pay people with similar educational backgrounds. And on that basis, teachers come out ahead - way ahead if you believe their hours aren't underrepresented relative to the other occupations, and slightly ahead if you believe their hours *are* underrepresented.

On the flipside, can you really claim that all engineers are highly qualified and face challenging positions? Frankly the majority now sit alone behind a PC and have extremely simple applications that take much of the competency out of the work. You can't do that with teaching. And IMO (although with some exceptions), the average teacher has has more implications for the long term success for this country than a typical white collar worker. Pio's example of a NYC teacher being a slug is not a good one. Inner city teachers by and large face huge challenges, yet are one of the most important ways of stemming the cycle of poverty...which costs this country probably as much as any single factor.

Your compensation suggestion has merit. But it would need to reflect the rigor of those hours. Again in the long run...there is this question of what kind of talent do we want drawn into managing societies education and what level of competency do we want in American business (which BTW does pay taxes) vis a vis the rest of the world. Unlike a big much of our military spending, we do get ALOT for our money.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Except that isn't the case. If the CBA goes away, the governor can decide to raid the fund to balance the budget. The memo from the law firm warns that it can be done retroactively, meaning all the money they've paid into the system disappears.

Do you honestly believe he won't if given that chance? Would you trust him if you were a state worker?

Right, he could decide to do that. Just like Congress "could" decide to declare war on Canada this morning. It's scare mongering, pure and simple. If a bunch of workers choose to believe it, and we get to bring in younger more motivated ones as a result, all the better.