Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

If that is true, why is it so difficult to fire a union member? CB has taken that right away from the employer.

The rest of your post seems like a ramble that doesn't really seem to apply to the argument, so I can't really comment on that.

Sorry. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet.

Let's try again.

Because who gets fired/laid off/promoted is always determined by who does the best job.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I agree. However, salaries are still set by supply and demand, and the fact is that even though there is a high demand for teachers (how many hundreds of thousands of teaching positions are there?) there is ALSO a very high supply of people who are qualified to fill those jobs. Collecting the garbage is a hugely important job, too (ever been in a city during a sanitation workers' strike?), but that doesn't automatically mean those people should be taking home 6 figures.

But if the demand is there, shouldn't the sanitation workers be paid whatever the market bears, even if it's six figures?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I agree. However, salaries are still set by supply and demand, and the fact is that even though there is a high demand for teachers (how many hundreds of thousands of teaching positions are there?) there is ALSO a very high supply of people who are qualified to fill those jobs. Collecting the garbage is a hugely important job, too (ever been in a city during a sanitation workers' strike?), but that doesn't automatically mean those people should be taking home 6 figures.

Especially when they aren't getting the job done. According to Obama advisor Cecilia Rouse, a high school graduate saves the country $127,000. In light of that, I have no problem paying teachers in the 6 figures if they are good at what they do.

But when black males are graduating at a 31% clip, as they are in Milwaukee, and teachers still have the stones to b and moan about their pay, tough luck. You shouldn't get paid more just because you've been around for longer.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

to have promises made with respect to retirement and then have the rug pulled out from under you when you've retired or are about to retire?

Both my parents were teachers and retired 3 years ago or so. #1 thing they probably did not expect going in: what kind of little ***** holes they would have for students by the time they retired.

My dad was a teacher also. He choose to do it, your parents made the same choice.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Interesting quote from FDR back in the 30s

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Especially when they aren't getting the job done. According to Obama advisor Cecilia Rouse, a high school graduate saves the country $127,000. In light of that, I have no problem paying teachers in the 6 figures if they are good at what they do.

But when black males are graduating at a 31% clip, as they are in Milwaukee, and teachers still have the stones to b and moan about their pay, tough luck. You shouldn't get paid more just because you've been around for longer.

This cracks me up. They might be the best teachers in the United States and still not be able to get the job done with that student body. That's just the way it is. You're going to have to give me more than their graduation rate to tell me whether or not the teachers are doing the best they can or not.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

This cracks me up. They might be the best teachers in the United States and still not be able to get the job done with that student body. That's just the way it is. You're going to have to give me more than their graduation rate to tell me whether or not the teachers are doing the best they can or not.

What else do you have to go by? Standardized test scores? I live in a small town but we have some tax base due a rather large paper mill. Brand new middle school, State of the Art. The middle school just had New England Regional test scores announced. 34% of kids in 6 thru 8 write at grade level. reading and math were better in the 50s. 72% of my property tax goes to schools and look at the results. If you were part of that school sysytem would you be proud of that? I know parents are an issue but 34% freakin percent, you gotta be ****tin' me

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

What else do you have to go by? Standardized test scores? I live in a small town but we have some tax base due a rather large paper mill. Brand new middle school, State of the Art. The middle school just had New England Regional test scores announced. 34% of kids in 6 thru 8 write at grade level. reading and math were better in the 50s. 72% of my property tax goes to schools and look at the results. If you were part of that school sysytem would you be proud of that? I know parents are an issue but 34% freakin percent, you gotta be ****tin' me

Teachers should be judged by their students, 5 years after they graduate from high school. I don't think there is any reasonable way to do this, though. Think about it, after just going through college, looking back at high school, it is easy to tell which teachers were the good ones. I know that there were teachers I hated in high school when I had them, but after getting my degree, I look back and realize that they were actually a very good teacher.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Teachers should be judged by their students, 5 years after they graduate from high school. I don't think there is any reasonable way to do this, though. Think about it, after just going through college, looking back at high school, it is easy to tell which teachers were the good ones. I know that there were teachers I hated in high school when I had them, but after getting my degree, I look back and realize that they were actually a very good teacher.

I had nuns thru 5th grade. Not sure what they had for education but I'd bet there weren't any masters degrees, when I hit Orono middle school I was so far ahead of them it was ridiculous so hence I got in alot of trouble due to boredom

I had some great teachers, some I'll never forget and some I wish I could thank now. I had some dopes I wanted to kill then and would still like to punch. I had one in College who was the whole key for me, I never would have stuck it out in ME if wasn't for him.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

What else do you have to go by? Standardized test scores? I live in a small town but we have some tax base due a rather large paper mill. Brand new middle school, State of the Art. The middle school just had New England Regional test scores announced. 34% of kids in 6 thru 8 write at grade level. reading and math were better in the 50s. 72% of my property tax goes to schools and look at the results. If you were part of that school sysytem would you be proud of that? I know parents are an issue but 34% freakin percent, you gotta be ****tin' me

No, I'm not kidding. Are you familiar with "learning styles"? And are you familiar with how many kids we shove into a classroom? With a variety of kids in the class and some problem kids sucking the time from the other, and a teacher having to try and find the learning style of each kid and teach the same information all those different ways I can see where there might be a problem. You mix in that 67% of the parents (20 out of 30) kids parents just don't give a crap and I'll bet that ration makes a lot of sense.

I can put it another way. I had great teachers in High School, but it was an inner city school that had a lot of discipline problems. I graduated close to the top of my class and took all the courses necessary to be "ready for college". I was ill prepared for college and had a very rough go of it. I'm still convinced my teachers did the best they could given the student body and what they had to deal with.

My oldest daughter goes to a High School that literally has college courses right there. Her grades are not as good as mine were (not even close) but she will be prepared for college. Of that I have no doubt. Completely differerent student body. The ratio of parental involvement is about 95% for her school, for mine it was about 10%. Including my parents who were not involved, I was just a good kid who seemed to be getting good grades and didn't cause any problems. My parents didn't go to college so they didn't know any better.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

What else do you have to go by? Standardized test scores? I live in a small town but we have some tax base due a rather large paper mill. Brand new middle school, State of the Art. The middle school just had New England Regional test scores announced. 34% of kids in 6 thru 8 write at grade level. reading and math were better in the 50s. 72% of my property tax goes to schools and look at the results. If you were part of that school sysytem would you be proud of that? I know parents are an issue but 34% freakin percent, you gotta be ****tin' me

brain drain

my parents taught in rural schools - the smarter kids moved away and never came back, the dumb ones stuck around and popped out kids

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

My dad was a teacher also. He choose to do it, your parents made the same choice.

so you can **** them over now because 30+ years ago they chose that as a profession?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Teachers should be judged by their students, 5 years after they graduate from high school.

That assumes they graduate.

so you can **** them over now because 30+ years ago they chose that as a profession?

How in the world are they being "****ed over"? By being asked to make a pension contribution a private sector employee would kill for?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Especially when they aren't getting the job done. According to Obama advisor Cecilia Rouse, a high school graduate saves the country $127,000. In light of that, I have no problem paying teachers in the 6 figures if they are good at what they do.

But when black males are graduating at a 31% clip, as they are in Milwaukee, and teachers still have the stones to b and moan about their pay, tough luck. You shouldn't get paid more just because you've been around for longer.

Dude read the book Freakanomics it discusses this. If you make teachers salary merit based all you are doing is incentivizing them to cheat or just pass students through the system so they up their numbers and get higher wages. Things will go out of whack and FAST.

I go back to the stat I read in my Public Policy class...students spend 88% of their time outside of school and out of the influence of teachers. If they arent learning (or being put in a position to learn) during that 88% nothing a teacher does in the other 12% is going to make much of a difference either way.

There is no easy solution to this but making grades or grad rates determine salary or job rank is going to cause twice as many issues than it fixes. Teachers wont go to "bad" schools for fear of having no shot at succeeding, or they will just make the courses so ****ed easy (or just cheat for students) that the students all pass and they keep their job. So either the kids dont learn anything or the "bad schools" will end up shutting down overpopulating the "good" schools making them fall.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Dude read the book Freakanomics it discusses this. If you make teachers salary merit based all you are doing is incentivizing them to cheat or just pass students through the system so they up their numbers and get higher wages. Things will go out of whack and FAST.

I've read Freakonomics, and its sequel. I don't think that's exactly the conclusion they reach. Of course merit pay will incentivize some teachers to cheat. Then, hopefully, they'll be caught and fired, and we'll have rid ourselves of another bad teacher.

Besides, it's hardly like the system now is devoid of such perverse incentives, is it?

Edit: Just thought I should note that this shouldn't be construed so that I'm unconditionally in favor of merit pay- there are obvious problems with it. But not the ones the teachers unions like to point out:

"If salaries were not simply based on years of experience and number of college credits earned or additional services provided, the teaching force at any workplace would be more stratified and much less willing to stand together during a conflict with school management or during a contract struggle".

Another guy who's all about the kids right there.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

That assumes they graduate.



How in the world are they being "****ed over"? By being asked to make a pension contribution a private sector employee would kill for?

I'm more or less talking about the situation in Maine where walrus and I both live. In Maine, teachers do not participate in social security and instead pay into a Maine state retirement system. Of course, Joe public thinks the teachers do not make any contribution and gets a lavish pension check. The system is underfunded and because of a 1995 constitutional ammendment it needs to be fully funded by 2028. The teachers were contributing a portion of their pay to this retirement plan, but it was mismanaged from the beginning (when all teachers were added to the state retirement plan over 50 years ago it dumped people that had never paid in but were about to retire into the pool, Gov. John McKernan (R) also borrowed from the fund to fill budget gaps). They looking at stopping cost of living adjustments and most likely they'll end up with reduced benefits as the downturn in the economy had made the situation even worse and the 2028 deadline grows closer and closer. Keep in mind the average pension for a retired teacher in Maine is currently $18,177 and they do not collect social security (and if they worked second jobs and did pay into social security they are penalized and do not get to collect the full ammount they are owed).

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

No it is prevalent today also though it was rendered moot by NCLB since now schools only get paid if they are up to AYP standards. (though that may have changed with the ridiculous Obama Race to the Top crap) Now schools have been incentivized to teach the standards only, in the easiest possible way to make sure students do just well enough to get funded!

All I am saying is that solution is still no solution. It is breaking off part of the dam to plug another whole in the dam. Sure the original hole is plugged, but now there is another hole! There needs to be a major overhaul to the system, anything less and you are just running away from Jason Voorhees right into the arms of Michael Myers (either way you are being stabbed in the gut by a guy in a mask!)

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

so you can **** them over now because 30+ years ago they chose that as a profession?

They should get what they were promised when they retired

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

All I am saying is that solution is still no solution. It is breaking off part of the dam to plug another whole in the dam. Sure the original hole is plugged, but now there is another hole! There needs to be a major overhaul to the system, anything less and you are just running away from Jason Voorhees right into the arms of Michael Myers (either way you are being stabbed in the gut by a guy in a mask!)

Why isn't it a solution though? Because people cheat? That's like saying: Taxes? What's the point? People will just cheat on them! When the far more rational solution is to catch the cheaters.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

They should get what they were promised when they retired

So if I'm an employer I can promise you a $100,000 a year retirement to get you in the door, but then just before you retire tell you it is now only $5,000? Awesome for employers. Sucks for employees though.