Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Right, he could decide to do that. Just like Congress "could" decide to declare war on Canada this morning. It's scare mongering, pure and simple. If a bunch of workers choose to believe it, and we get to bring in younger more motivated ones as a result, all the better.

So you would trust him. He's proved so honest and above board so far.

And the example of Congress declaring war on Canada isn't extreme or anything. More similar, Congress was given this power with the Social Security trust fund; how long did it take them to go after that money?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

So you would trust him. He's proved so honest and above board so far.

Wisconsin has 7.5% unemployment. Better than the national average, but not great. So yeah, I think a lot of people, if given the chance to get a job with better benefits than the private sector, would absolutely leap at the chance, whatever issues of "trust" there may be. I mean, if the choice is between getting a job and listening to a lawyer with a scary memo, I know what choice I'd take.

Especially when said scary article is written for something called "The Progressive", by an author who has written such insightful columns for the magazine as this one touting Dennis Kucinich in 2004 or this one talking about how John Edwards (!) is the best candidate for women. Ooooof.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Wisconsin has 7.5% unemployment. Better than the national average, but not great. So yeah, I think a lot of people, if given the chance to get a job with better benefits than the private sector, would absolutely leap at the chance, whatever issues of "trust" there may be. I mean, if the choice is between getting a job and listening to a lawyer with a scary memo, I know what choice I'd take.

Especially when said scary article is written for something called "The Progressive", by an author who has written such insightful columns for the magazine as this one touting Dennis Kucinich in 2004 or this one talking about how John Edwards (!) is the best candidate for women. Ooooof.

Here you go
Let us know for which job you were hired.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

On the flipside, can you really claim that all engineers are highly qualified and face challenging positions?

I wasn't making that claim. I was saying we can't make blanket statements regarding the relative difficulty of these professions because every situation is different. In the case of the teachers, the difficulty of their job is pretty much solely dependent on the student population that they must oversee.

Frankly the majority now sit alone behind a PC and have extremely simple applications that take much of the competency out of the work.

Call me skeptical, but I'd rather get some testimony on this from the many engineers that populate this site as to what their jobs are like and just what the work entails before I assume they have it easier than teachers. I'd also say it's harder to pass the requisite coursework to become an engineer - most people simply aren't capable of handling the level of math required.

And IMO (although with some exceptions), the average teacher has has more implications for the long term success for this country than a typical white collar worker.

Given the horrendous state of education in this country, I'd say the average teacher isn't good enough. Or to put it another way, the parents aren't good enough, since their support is required to get the most out of their kids. It also doesn't help when we have pockets of ****ing morons demanding that we teach creationism / ignorant design alongside evolution because hey, it's only a theory (so not only do parents and teachers matter, but so too does the curriculum).

But it would need to reflect the rigor of those hours.

And how do you assess that? Time spent on feet? Length and frequency of breaks? Level of stress? Multitasking?

Again in the long run...there is this question of what kind of talent do we want drawn into managing societies education and what level of competency do we want in American business (which BTW does pay taxes) vis a vis the rest of the world.

It's not just talent - it's a question of who is good at teaching. Being knowledgeable about something is insufficient. To be a good teacher, you have to be able to be good at showing people how to do things / how to approach problems and to motivate them. There are countless college professors who aren't good at ANY of those.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Call me skeptical, but I'd rather get some testimony on this from the many engineers that populate this site as to what their jobs are like and just what the work entails before I assume they have it easier than teachers. I'd also say it's harder to pass the requisite coursework to become an engineer - most people simply aren't capable of handling the level of math required.

Funny you should ask... On Friday afternoon, I got on a plane with 3 hours notice, missed my connection, spent the night in a hotel, and have worked 36 hours since 11 am on Saturday (when I finally arrived) re-writing a simulation model that is holding up the certification of a multi-billion dollar airplane program. Probably not as hard or stressful as teaching, I guess.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

But in that same timeframe, the over-worked teachers had to sit at home grading papers. Clearly their job is harder than yours.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Given the horrendous state of education in this country, I'd say the average teacher isn't good enough. Or to put it another way, the parents aren't good enough, since their support is required to get the most out of their kids. It also doesn't help when we have pockets of ****ing morons demanding that we teach creationism / ignorant design alongside evolution because hey, it's only a theory (so not only do parents and teachers matter, but so too does the curriculum).

And how do you assess that? Time spent on feet? Length and frequency of breaks? Level of stress? Multitasking?

It's not just talent - it's a question of who is good at teaching. Being knowledgeable about something is insufficient. To be a good teacher, you have to be able to be good at showing people how to do things / how to approach problems and to motivate them. There are countless college professors who aren't good at ANY of those.

Point is the comparison was that made was between teachers and average white collar position...I'm saying that IMO a teaching position has a greater impact on this country and that speaking in front of aprox 150 kids a day with 150 parents figuratively looking over your shoulder is more difficult on average than similarly paid white collar jobs. But people seem surprised that a teacher makes the same as someone who resides in a cubical.

We have a huge spending problem in the country and I think there are opportunities to cut education. But the line that simply cutting teacher salaries is the solution is very dangerous to our future competitiveness. So if your position is that education isn't good enough in this country...how does that jive with a desire to disincentivize and guarentee that it will be further degraded? The argument made here consistently is that if the US taxes entrepreurs too heavily that our creativity and therefore the competitiveness of American business suffers. How come this does not carry over to education...which is the number one way the Americans in every profession stay competitive in business, hospital care, etc?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Funny you should ask... On Friday afternoon, I got on a plane with 3 hours notice, missed my connection, spent the night in a hotel, and have worked 36 hours since 11 am on Saturday (when I finally arrived) re-writing a simulation model that is holding up the certification of a multi-billion dollar airplane program. Probably not as hard or stressful as teaching, I guess.

...and how much of that work do you need to do to get paid for an annual inner city teachers salary?

With my consulting work, it takes me less than a month to make a typical high school teachers salary. And no, my work is not 12 times more difficult nor valuable than a teachers.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

It's not just talent - it's a question of who is good at teaching. Being knowledgeable about something is insufficient. To be a good teacher, you have to be able to be good at showing people how to do things / how to approach problems and to motivate them. There are countless college professors who aren't good at ANY of those.

It's a good illustration, but these are apples and oranges. The incentive structure for college professors at most colleges and universities penalizes a concern for anything more than a minimal level of teaching competence. That's a whole different story.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

...and how much of that work do you need to do to get paid for an annual inner city teachers salary?

With my consulting work, it takes me less than a month to make a typical high school teachers salary. And no, my work is not 12 times more difficult nor valuable than a teachers.

You made a choice to do what you do, Teachers made a choice to do what they do. Both of you knew going in what to expect

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

You made a choice to do what you do, Teachers made a choice to do what they do. Both of you knew going in what to expect

Of course, but that's not what matters here. I liken this type of position to...Saddam wouldn't be honest with us, so the US should damage itself by weakening its world position and spend billions on an invasion. This is not how does that individual feel about their job.

This is about the big picture future. Believe it or not, competition is fierce for quality labor at this level. And I'd rather have quality folks in teaching rather than waitressing.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

You made a choice to do what you do, Teachers made a choice to do what they do. Both of you knew going in what to expect

to have promises made with respect to retirement and then have the rug pulled out from under you when you've retired or are about to retire?

Both my parents were teachers and retired 3 years ago or so. #1 thing they probably did not expect going in: what kind of little ***** holes they would have for students by the time they retired.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

But in that same timeframe, the over-worked teachers had to sit at home grading papers. Clearly their job is harder than yours.

Nice straw man, but you are not as good at baiting as you think you are

Teaching is easy, ask anyone who doesnt do it!

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

I love that experience means nothing.

Why should this matter? If you are ineffective at your job, what difference does it make how experienced you are. Experience implies you should be better at your job then anyone just off the street, so why do you need any additional protection? Be good enough at your job so there is no question.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

As was pointed out previously, currently the cutoff is 14. This law removes ANY cutoff at all. Technically, as soon as the little bugger is out of the womb s/he could go to work (but that really wouldn't be practical).

What would be wrong with that. I started working 10 hour days when I was about 10 years old. It was a good learning experience.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Why should this matter? If you are ineffective at your job, what difference does it make how experienced you are. Experience implies you should be better at your job then anyone just off the street, so why do you need any additional protection? Be good enough at your job so there is no question.

Because who gets fired/laid off/promoted is always determined by who does the best job.

You're right. I want Joe who couldn't hold a job at the gas station to be the register of deeds in my town. I want Flo the waitress to be a police officer and carry a gun. We can pay them next to nothing. They'll be grateful just to have a job!

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Carter]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

My Mom was a teacher. She started in the '30s after probably a year or two of county teacher's normal school. One room schoolhouse, grades 1 through 8. Get through whatever the weather threw at you, start the fires to heat the building, and teach them all. After the war, she married and raised my sister and me. When my Dad died at 50 in 1967, she went back to school to update her teaching credentials, and started teaching 1st grade in a farming community outside Madison. She taught for nearly 20 more years, and finished her teaching degree as well. During those years she worked most evenings, put in time every weekend and during the summers as well, along with the college courses she was taking. But most importantly, and what she was most proud of, was the fact that she taught hundreds of young citizens to read. And I don't care how many ****ing engineering degrees you have, what you do isn't as important as that.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Because who gets fired/laid off/promoted is always determined by who does the best job.

You're right. I want Joe who couldn't hold a job at the gas station to be the register of deeds in my town. I want Flo the waitress to be a police officer and carry a gun. We can pay them next to nothing. They'll be grateful just to have a job!

What could possibly go wrong?

If that is true, why is it so difficult to fire a union member? CB has taken that right away from the employer.

The rest of your post seems like a ramble that doesn't really seem to apply to the argument, so I can't really comment on that.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Call me skeptical, but I'd rather get some testimony on this from the many engineers that populate this site as to what their jobs are like and just what the work entails before I assume they have it easier than teachers. I'd also say it's harder to pass the requisite coursework to become an engineer - most people simply aren't capable of handling the level of math required.

Funny you should ask... On Friday afternoon, I got on a plane with 3 hours notice, missed my connection, spent the night in a hotel, and have worked 36 hours since 11 am on Saturday (when I finally arrived) re-writing a simulation model that is holding up the certification of a multi-billion dollar airplane program. Probably not as hard or stressful as teaching, I guess.

And I am taking an engine, running on a fuel that has never been used before, never. Determining the properties of the fuel, the flowrates and pressures needed to sustain stable engine operation, figuring out which hardware needs to change, what ECM paremeters need to be recalibrated and calculating what the predicted emissions would be...in -35 degree weather. But I'd still do it in a heartbeat than try to teach a bunch of disrespectful inner-city gang bangers their multiplication tables 5 years after a normal person would learn them.

Is that the kind of testimonial you were looking for, commie?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

And I don't care how many ****ing engineering degrees you have, what you do isn't as important as that.

I agree. However, salaries are still set by supply and demand, and the fact is that even though there is a high demand for teachers (how many hundreds of thousands of teaching positions are there?) there is ALSO a very high supply of people who are qualified to fill those jobs. Collecting the garbage is a hugely important job, too (ever been in a city during a sanitation workers' strike?), but that doesn't automatically mean those people should be taking home 6 figures.