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Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

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Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Priceless said:
No, you're not. As soon as anyone posts a link proving you wrong, you immediately change the conditions. Have fun playing your little game.
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Neither you nor Rufus are providing anything up-to-date to support your position. You're throwing stuff out here from last Summer/Fall. Rufus said 75% of Americans support the Public Option. Show me something current that supports that statement.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

ScoobyDoo said:
Don't forget that Glen Beck has reminded us how Libraries are free. He learned all this cool stuff he spouts on TV and the radio at the library.
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Which presumes the majority of his audience can actually read.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

IF 75% of the public currently supports the plan then it shouldn't be too hard to produce one link...it didn't take too long to produce a bunch of old ones.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

pirate said:
IF 75% of the public currently supports the plan then it shouldn't be too hard to produce one link...it didn't take too long to produce a bunch of old ones.
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But if anyone posts such a link, it would be a misleading question...or paid for by a bad source....or whatever else Bill decides to use to discredit the poll. I don't care to play that game. If he wants to believe otherwise, good for him.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

So... once the dems knock down the "public option" item does anybody else think they'll take the rest down under the same "reconciliation plan"... we know the democrats generally believe their ideas in absolute terms and they see a window on the implementation of their ideal society closing.

I think they'll shoot for the moon myself and try to get as many of these things through as possible... as for them its only moral (in their minds) to do so... but we're going from in a tough hole to a very tough hole very quickly if these things happen.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Patman said:
So... once the dems knock down the "public option" item does anybody else think they'll take the rest down under the same "reconciliation plan"... we know the democrats generally believe their ideas in absolute terms and they see a window on the implementation of their ideal society closing.

I think they'll shoot for the moon myself and try to get as many of these things through as possible... as for them its only moral (in their minds) to do so... but we're going from in a tough hole to a very tough hole very quickly if these things happen.
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I do kind of agree with the liberal line of thinking on this. The people who hate health care reform are loud, and will be fired up at the polls about this- their minds are made up, and any backtracking now by the Democrats probably won't help them in November. The Democrats' only chance really is to pass as liberal a bill as they can, force the public option through somehow, and hope they can get the base to turn out in November.

I won't like it if they do it, but I can certainly see how that is their best option.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

WeWantMore said:
I do kind of agree with the liberal line of thinking on this. The people who hate health care reform are loud, and will be fired up at the polls about this- their minds are made up, and any backtracking now by the Democrats probably won't help them in November. The Democrats' only chance really is to pass as liberal a bill as they can, force the public option through somehow, and hope they can get the base to turn out in November.

I won't like it if they do it, but I can certainly see how that is their best option.
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Well, we'll end up paying for it in the end... the press will gloss over its errors once they get it to "universal health care stage" which is the end goal... in the meantime they'll stress (2 years from now) that "it wasn't enough" because rates will increase a TON. It just hurts because you can see where its going and you know it'll get there... you just have to watch it play out.

The Obama administration has made a concerted effort not to provide any solutions which lay outside of the traditional hard-left ideological solution base. He's made a small concession on nuclear power and kept some of the military parts in place... but the military issues or nuclear power won't warp the long term fundamentals of this country and none of this serves to help the current term issues with this country. Obama has defined himself as smart reasonable and in control and thus he ends up getting spin that his solutions are thus from those places... which is garbage... solutions are to be evaluated on their face not on the constructed image of the person delivering it... but most people buy the image.

I fully expect through all this that we're going to keep going through the "lost decade" and maybe it'll extend further on because of these changes... but you can't change so much and expect that things will proceed predictably or smoothly. Whatever one says about Bush... other than military and security the status quo was kept and the major issue was the one brewing on Wall Street. The current health care issue boils down to people wanting more for less and the idealism that we need to provide health care to all. Both groups are in a rude awakening.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Patman said:
Well, we'll end up paying for it in the end... the press will gloss over its errors once they get it to "universal health care stage" which is the end goal... in the meantime they'll stress (2 years from now) that "it wasn't enough" because rates will increase a TON. It just hurts because you can see where its going and you know it'll get there... you just have to watch it play out.

The Obama administration has made a concerted effort not to provide any solutions which lay outside of the traditional hard-left ideological solution base. He's made a small concession on nuclear power and kept some of the military parts in place... but the military issues or nuclear power won't warp the long term fundamentals of this country and none of this serves to help the current term issues with this country. Obama has defined himself as smart reasonable and in control and thus he ends up getting spin that his solutions are thus from those places... which is garbage... solutions are to be evaluated on their face not on the constructed image of the person delivering it... but most people buy the image.

I fully expect through all this that we're going to keep going through the "lost decade" and maybe it'll extend further on because of these changes... but you can't change so much and expect that things will proceed predictably or smoothly. Whatever one says about Bush... other than military and security the status quo was kept and the major issue was the one brewing on Wall Street. The current health care issue boils down to people wanting more for less and the idealism that we need to provide health care to all. Both groups are in a rude awakening.
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Why is it that every other nation in the industrialized world has universal coverage yet somehow spend less than we do? And why would costs increase "a TON" if we have universal coverage when they haven't elsewhere? Do we just have inferior doctors? Politicians? Hospitals? Why are costs automatically going to go up to even higher levels when they haven't anywhere else?
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Patman said:
The Obama administration has made a concerted effort not to provide any solutions which lay outside of the traditional hard-left ideological solution base. He's made a small concession on nuclear power and kept some of the military parts in place... but the military issues or nuclear power won't warp the long term fundamentals of this country and none of this serves to help the current term issues with this country. Obama has defined himself as smart reasonable and in control and thus he ends up getting spin that his solutions are thus from those places... which is garbage... solutions are to be evaluated on their face not on the constructed image of the person delivering it... but most people buy the image.
Click to expand...

This is hilarious, Patman. For now, let's agree that Obama's proposals have been 'far-left' (which certainly isn't true, but I'll go along with it for the sake of argument). Why the hell should he make an effort to find solutions outside of his base? As Dick Cheney famously quipped, "elections have consequences."

The reality, however, is that he has made inroads with centrist policies and he has reached out to the right far more than most. Bi-partisanship can be framed in terms of either process or outcome. Obama's process has been thoroughly bi-partisan. The House GOP's one-pager on health care reform contained several ideas that are in the current bill, for example - and a couple others that were complete hooey (we're going to lower premiums by... lowering premiums! Genius!). However, it takes two to tango - if Republicans really want bi-partisan outcomes, then they have to be prepared to actually vote for stuff.

The Republicans haven't offered anything of substance because they don't want anything to pass. That's fine, that's their prerogative. But in doing so, they forfeit the right to achieve bi-partisan outcomes.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

blockski said:
This is hilarious, Patman. For now, let's agree that Obama's proposals have been 'far-left' (which certainly isn't true, but I'll go along with it for the sake of argument). Why the hell should he make an effort to find solutions outside of his base? As Dick Cheney famously quipped, "elections have consequences."

The reality, however, is that he has made inroads with centrist policies and he has reached out to the right far more than most. Bi-partisanship can be framed in terms of either process or outcome. Obama's process has been thoroughly bi-partisan. The House GOP's one-pager on health care reform contained several ideas that are in the current bill, for example - and a couple others that were complete hooey (we're going to lower premiums by... lowering premiums! Genius!). However, it takes two to tango - if Republicans really want bi-partisan outcomes, then they have to be prepared to actually vote for stuff.

The Republicans haven't offered anything of substance because they don't want anything to pass. That's fine, that's their prerogative. But in doing so, they forfeit the right to achieve bi-partisan outcomes.
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Or is it that the Dems have a significant enough majority that they don't feel they need/want to listen to what the Reps have proposed?

There's this:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2009/09/13/media-myth-gop-has-no-health-care-ideas

And this:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...lican-health-care-plans-8224780-58644807.html
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Priceless said:
But if anyone posts such a link, it would be a misleading question...or paid for by a bad source....or whatever else Bill decides to use to discredit the poll. I don't care to play that game. If he wants to believe otherwise, good for him.
Click to expand...

And I wasn't siding against you, I don't know what the latest polls say, but 9 month old surveys weren't going to move things along. You all were caught up in the corner holding the puck...thought I'd yell "keep playing".

It is clear we all can quote surveys from one-sided organizations, and that they ask the same questions and yet get different results should give us all pause before we start quoting them.

There was a time when there were fewer pollsters and you could trust them, then it got into the competing surveys, with partisans figuring most wouldn't know that the Freedom Institute (or whatever org was publishing) was really financed by one of the parties.

I think it all started when 4 out of 5 dentists started recommending Trident.:D
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Bill said:
Or is it that the Dems have a significant enough majority that they don't feel they need/want to listen to what the Reps have proposed?

There's this:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2009/09/13/media-myth-gop-has-no-health-care-ideas

And this:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...lican-health-care-plans-8224780-58644807.html
Click to expand...

I'll say it again. Elections have consequences. The Dems are certainly willing to listen to and adopt Republican ideas if that means republicans will vote for the bill. The R's have made no such agreements, thus their amendments are out.

As for the lack of reporting on Republican ideas - if all that is required to count an 'idea' is to introduce a resolution to the House, that's not exactly a high bar... In fact, those very amendments often aren't designed for actual adoption, but to delay and stall.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

pirate said:
I think it all started when 4 out of 5 dentists started recommending Trident.:D
Click to expand...

And the fifth guy was too busy playing with Nitrous Oxide to answer the question ... :D
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

walrus said:
Thats correct, the Dems have a majority. They need to get to it.
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Of course, a simple majority isn't enough to pass things, as we all know.

They will, but they want to position themselves first. They want to ask the Republicans for contributions to this bill, and they know they will offer nothing of substance. They also know that they will not vote for it. Therefore, by default, they will paint them as defenders of the status quo while the Dems are the one to pass something of substance.

This is also part of the larger strategy to paint the Republicans as obstructionists, but that only works if you can also point to successes.
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

blockski said:
They want to ask the Republicans for contributions to this bill, and they know they will offer nothing of substance. .
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Its good to see they have an open mind:p
What happened to doing the right thing anyway?, both parties could care less about it, they all need to be kicked to the curb ASAP
 
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

walrus said:
Its good to see they have an open mind:p
What happened to doing the right thing anyway?, both parties could care less about it, they all need to be kicked to the curb ASAP
Click to expand...

Different people have slightly different ideas of what "the right thing" is.
 
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