Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Sarcasm aside, I do have one serious question. Can anyone show me, or tell me about a single government run program that was profitable and not a cash burning organization: Amtrak? Medicare? Social Security? Post Office? Medicaid?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think I'm pretty conservative, especially fiscally, but that's a really terrible question. Those programs are not designed to be "profitable," so that's a lousy standard to hold them to - you might as well say the Yankees suck because they've never won a Superbowl.

Medicare and SS are completely different animals - just wealth transfer, so set those aside for the moment - how would that ever be profitable? Amtrak has never had a shot due to lack of investment in the infrastructure (read: high speed rail) that would give it a fighting chance against air travel and the interstate system. But the post office? Hugely profitable - if you bookkeep it properly. Sure, its cash flow may not have balanced for a few years there, but the fact that the PO exists is a tremendous enabler for businesses in the US. Taking away the USPS and replacing it with a fractured network of for-profit courier services would be a major hit to business productivity, which would come right off the bottom lines of the companies, who would in turn pay less in taxes. It's a very good thing for the country to have a government-run, trustworthy, impartial, at-cost postal service. If you disagree, then you're a serious wingnut - you can't even argue framers' intent, since it's right there in black-and-white: "[The Congress shall have the power] To establish Post Offices and Post Roads."

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think I'm pretty conservative, especially fiscally, but that's a really terrible question. Those programs are not designed to be "profitable," so that's a lousy standard to hold them to - you might as well say the Yankees suck because they've never won a Superbowl.

Medicare and SS are completely different animals - just wealth transfer, so set those aside for the moment - how would that ever be profitable? Amtrak has never had a shot due to lack of investment in the infrastructure (read: high speed rail) that would give it a fighting chance against air travel and the interstate system. But the post office? Hugely profitable - if you bookkeep it properly. Sure, its cash flow may not have balanced for a few years there, but the fact that the PO exists is a tremendous enabler for businesses in the US. Taking away the USPS and replacing it with a fractured network of for-profit courier services would be a major hit to business productivity, which would come right off the bottom lines of the companies, who would in turn pay less in taxes. It's a very good thing for the country to have a government-run, trustworthy, impartial, at-cost postal service. If you disagree, then you're a serious wingnut - you can't even argue framers' intent, since it's right there in black-and-white: "[The Congress shall have the power] To establish Post Offices and Post Roads."

Well said.

The problem with the idea that 'goverment should be run like a business' is that most of the government's core functions are under their purview precisely because we benefit from not running them like a business. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.

And yes, the Yankees do suck.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Abuse of Power

The use of Budget Reconciliation to pass Obamacare is essentially the end of our "Republic" and pushes us into a pure Democracy. The whole purpose of the Senate is to cool the passions of the House.

How are the Dems going to react when the GOP gains complete control down the road and wants to outlaw abortion using the same tactic?

The Dems should really listen to their own words against reconciliation back in 2005.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Abuse of Power

The use of Budget Reconciliation to pass Obamacare is essentially the end of our "Republic" and pushes us into a pure Democracy. The whole purpose of the Senate is to cool the passions of the House.

How are the Dems going to react when the GOP gains complete control down the road and wants to outlaw abortion using the same tactic?

The Dems should really listen to their own words against reconciliation back in 2005.

I don't think you could outlaw abortion on that tactic... BUT you could certainly sever any and all abortion funding on that tactic.

Ends justify the means folks. We're dealing with people who feel they are so self-righteously correct that its only moral that they get these things done. We aren't dealing with measured rational people here who respect institutions. Remember, to them the institutions themselves are immoral since they stand in the way of what they want. Of course they stand in the way of what a whole lot of other people want as well but at least we respect them.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Ends justify the means folks. We're dealing with people who feel they are so self-righteously correct that its only moral that they get these things done. We aren't dealing with measured rational people here who respect institutions. Remember, to them the institutions themselves are immoral since they stand in the way of what they want. Of course they stand in the way of what a whole lot of other people want as well but at least we respect them.

Are you talking about yourself or somebody else?

Sarcasm aside, I do have one serious question. Can anyone show me, or tell me about a single government run program that was profitable and not a cash burning organization: Amtrak? Medicare? Social Security? Post Office? Medicaid?

I'd go with the public college system for 200, Alex. Michigan, Florida, etc. Mind you these schools also compete with the private colleges too....

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I'd go with the public college system for 200, Alex. Michigan, Florida, etc. Mind you these schools also compete with the private colleges too....

The same college system who's costs have gone up (ajusted for inflation) 400% since 1970? To give you a little comparison healthcare has only gone up 200% in that time and gas has gone up 100%.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Abuse of Power

The use of Budget Reconciliation to pass Obamacare is essentially the end of our "Republic" and pushes us into a pure Democracy. The whole purpose of the Senate is to cool the passions of the House.

How are the Dems going to react when the GOP gains complete control down the road and wants to outlaw abortion using the same tactic?

The key difference is that the bill already passed the Senate with 60 votes. They're talking about passing that bill and then modifying the budget portions of it via reconciliation.

The Senate is not just cooling passions here, it's not getting anything done. This isn't about partisanship or even the traditions of the Senate, it is a direct result of previous reforms that have made the filibuster easier to use.

The Dems should really listen to their own words against reconciliation back in 2005.

Of course, this is completely unrelated. The Republican 'nuclear option' wasn't about changing Senate rules (and the 3/4 vote that would require), it was about just declaring the filibuster Unconstitutional as a matter of fact. It had nothing to do with reconciliation, which is not used for judicial nominees.

Is nuance too hard? Is it not possible to realize that the concept of the filibuster is crucial, but the procedural rules surrounding it have created a systemic block in the system?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The Dems are certainly "winning" that bet at this juncture:

- Healthcare for everyone, but on the shoulders of middle class via increased taxes
- A White House more polarizing/partisan than G W Bush's
- No 2 million jobs (you remember the jobs Obama promised)
- How's that Gitmo, Iraq/Afghanistan Wars, and prosecuting Al Queda going
- 10.2% unemployment rate

Yes sir, we are experiencing good times in America.

Mostly offbase. Total view from the right 1/3...who is not happy with anything, see all the socialism talk before O even stepped into office (nor has much of a solution on their own side).

...and after the financial crisis, there's absolutetely no way an economy could drop to 3% unemployment in a year regardless of who was in charge. No way.

The same college system who's costs have gone up (ajusted for inflation) 400% since 1970? To give you a little comparison healthcare has only gone up 200% in that time and gas has gone up 100%.

I thought we were talking about profits and their ability to execute as well as the private sector? Now we're saying that higher education cannot raise prices?

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The same college system who's costs have gone up (ajusted for inflation) 400% since 1970? To give you a little comparison healthcare has only gone up 200% in that time and gas has gone up 100%.

What Major said MinnFan. The question was name something the govt has run that wasn't a cash burn operation. I sighted public colleges, in particular the UMichigans of the world, which compete well with private enterprise in both academics and athletics. I'm sorry if I've proved you anti-government kooks wrong yet again, but really, you ought to be used to that by now, no?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

What Major said MinnFan. The question was name something the govt has run that wasn't a cash burn operation. I sighted public colleges, in particular the UMichigans of the world, which compete well with private enterprise in both academics and athletics. I'm sorry if I've proved you anti-government kooks wrong yet again, but really, you ought to be used to that by now, no?

I'd say that out of control costs and constantly going back to the gov't for more money is a "cash burn" operation.

Its also worth pointing out that by-and-large private schools offer a superior education to public schools. Lets look at the rule instead of the exception.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The key difference is that the bill already passed the Senate with 60 votes. They're talking about passing that bill and then modifying the budget portions of it via reconciliation.

We aren't talking about a signed bill here so it is like passing a completely new bill. Nothing like this has ever been done before.

And the word is that in order to pass the House they are going to have to amend the abortion language (among many other things). I don't see how that is budget related.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I'd say that out of control costs and constantly going back to the gov't for more money is a "cash burn" operation.

Its also worth pointing out that by-and-large private schools offer a superior education to public schools. Lets look at the rule instead of the exception.

Evidence please. On a cost basis (recall public tuition is generally lower than private school tuition) I'm curious which is giving you more bang for your buck with comparable academics.

Back to the point though, I'm citing govt run schools that have performed well. I was asked to find an example of a successful govt run organization and I can name dozens of them in good public colleges. All of your whining doesn't change that fact, and if your screen name indicates attendence at Minnesota your argument would contradict where you chose to attend school.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Evidence please. On a cost basis (recall public tuition is generally lower than private school tuition) I'm curious which is giving you more bang for your buck with comparable academics.

I'm not the one who made the original claim. How about you prove that public schools are on par.

Also, didn't go to UMN.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I'm not the one who made the original claim. How about you prove that public schools are on par.

Also, didn't go to UMN.

I've already proven my original point so why bother? Once I prove you wrong there, you'll go on another tangent about how public school's curling teams aren't as good as private ones or some other nonsense. While its nice that you are enjoying being unemployed, please keep in mind that not every one of us out here shares your situation and the free time you have on your hands.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I've already proven my original point so why bother? Once I prove you wrong there, you'll go on another tangent about how public school's curling teams aren't as good as private ones or some other nonsense. While its nice that you are enjoying being unemployed, please keep in mind that not every one of us out here shares your situation and the free time you have on your hands.

I guess I missed the part where you linked to a study showing you are right. Oh, thats right. If Rover says it it must be true and we don't need any evidence backing it up.

Also, your initial argument is false to being with. The state doesn't run the schools. They subsidize them.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I've already proven my original point so why bother? Once I prove you wrong there, you'll go on another tangent about how public school's curling teams aren't as good as private ones or some other nonsense. While its nice that you are enjoying being unemployed, please keep in mind that not every one of us out here shares your situation and the free time you have on your hands.

And eaglehockeyrules was obviously looking for someone to give examples of programs run by the federal government that weren't big cash burners. You just happened to seize upon his lack of use of the word "federal" to go off on a tangent about public colleges.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Sarcasm aside, I do have one serious question. Can anyone show me, or tell me about a single government run program that was profitable and not a cash burning organization: Amtrak? Medicare? Social Security? Post Office? Medicaid?

Since when are gov't programs supposed to be profitable? Isn't that the entire point of a government program, that it's providing something that either the free market will consistantly fail to properly provide (public parks, means of interstate commerce (ie roads), etc.) or services that society deems so universal as to say "to hell with the market" (national defense, an impartial judiciary, etc.)?

That said, the post office would be profitable if it could keep its books like a private entity and if it also weren't hamstrung by its enacting statute, which explicitly prohibits it from being run for profit.

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Since when are gov't programs supposed to be profitable? Isn't that the entire point of a government program, that it's providing something that either the free market will consistantly fail to properly provide (public parks, means of interstate commerce (ie roads), etc.) or services that society deems so universal as to say "to hell with the market" (national defense, an impartial judiciary, etc.)?

That said, the post office would be profitable if it could keep its books like a private entity and if it also weren't hamstrung by its enacting statute, which explicitly prohibits it from being run for profit.

Ok, maybe not "profitable"... let's say for this debate use the word "successful" instead. Do you condiser Social Security and Amtrak successful government entities? The government's intent when starting these programs was one clear mission, and not they've evolved into something completely different: the former an entitlement for those who do not have commonsense to samve for retirement, and the later a rail system that is on par with the CCCP rail system of 1974.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Ok, maybe not "profitable"... let's say for this debate use the word "successful" instead. Do you condiser Social Security and Amtrak successful government entities? The government's intent when starting these programs was one clear mission, and not they've evolved into something completely different: the former an entitlement for those who do not have commonsense to samve for retirement, and the later a rail system that is on par with the CCCP rail system of 1974.

If Social Security was a "separate" balance sheet it would be a success.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I guess I missed the part where you linked to a study showing you are right. Oh, thats right. If Rover says it it must be true and we don't need any evidence backing it up.

Also, your initial argument is false to being with. The state doesn't run the schools. They subsidize them.

You're free to link "evidence" showing how Michigan, Minnesota, etc are not successful public schools by any criteria you wish to defend. This ought to be real amusing, so please do answer this one.

Your second point is stupid, even for you. The President isn't running Medicaid either, its being subsidized. Same thing with the Air Traffic Controllers or the FDA. So, once again we're back to the original question about you, which is: are you really this stupid or just playing a character out here.

Beyond all this though, I am amused by your average teabagger / knuckledraggers' rant about Social Security. I welcome Republicans running on an elimination of Social Security platform, but they never seem to for some reason. I also never see hard core righties refusing it when they're eligible. The word 'hyprocrites' comes to mind. However, lets look at the facts. SoS will remain solvent for the first 100 years of its life by all accounts. Its kept hundreds of millions out of poverty, all the while paying for itself. While nobody at its inception could have anticipated the demographic event that will primarily make up the future problem (the Baby Boom from the end of a war that had yet to occur when the program started in the mid 30's), the fix is a fairly simple means test to extend its solvency.

People are entitled to their opinion of course, but I'll say again - for all the whiners about SoS, how many of these same people refuse its benefits???