Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

[rufus]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Nazi = National Socialist German Workers' Party

So now you're gonna tell us the Nazis were socialists?

Funny, some guy on my cycling forum tried to do that same thing. Don't think he's ever managed to live that one down yet.


"But...............but......................they have it right in the name of their party. It must be so!!!"

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, Dude, but at least its an ethos.

Some people don't quite get that "national socialism" doesn't exactly mean "socialism applied nationally".

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Of course social security has socialist elements. What the people screaming about socialism don't seem to get, however, is that our society has always had these strands of socialism. It's all shades of gray, not black and white.

That's why all the screaming about socialism is so hollow.

QFT.

Especially since NO government, save for maybe the few remaining communist ones, practice anything that remotely resembles true socialism.

This is sort of like an annual period that happens to the type of people who like to spend their time whining about taxes. They start filling out their IRS forms, and all of a sudden they're decrying anything and everything to be signs of Big Brother and Thought Police trying to bring them down because they can't bear to part with their precious, precious money.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social Security wasn't created until the 1930's. I'm pretty sure we got along without it much longer than we have with it.

Ok. So, if not socialism, then what word would you use to describe our society? Capitalist?

Because the reality is blindingly obvious - we've never been a wholly capitalist society. We've had socialist elements since the dawn of this nation - Social Security is but one example.

Again - shades of gray. Once you start yapping about the extremes of this-ism or that-ism, I can pretty much guarantee that you are wrong.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Ok. So, if not socialism, then what word would you use to describe our society? Capitalist?

Because the reality is blindingly obvious - we've never been a wholly capitalist society. We've had socialist elements since the dawn of this nation - Social Security is but one example.

Again - shades of gray. Once you start yapping about the extremes of this-ism or that-ism, I can pretty much guarantee that you are wrong.

Social security is not an example. The dawn of our nation was 150 years prior to FDR and SS.

Capitalism, is not a 'failed Bush policy'. That's been our way of life even before the dawn of the USA. And we've done well by it.

Now catch me up. Are we still debating whether SS is a socialist program? or has that been conceded and we've moved on to whether socialism is good or not?

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

So now you're gonna tell us the Nazis were socialists?

Funny, some guy on my cycling forum tried to do that same thing. Don't think he's ever managed to live that one down yet.


"But...............but......................they have it right in the name of their party. It must be so!!!"

Some people don't quite get that "national socialism" doesn't exactly mean "socialism applied nationally".

We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

The following is more from the top Nazi;

We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

I just don't know how you can read that and say the Nazi's weren't socialists.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social security is not an example. The dawn of our nation was 150 years prior to FDR and SS.

Capitalism, is not a 'failed Bush policy'. That's been our way of life even before the dawn of the USA. And we've done well by it.

Now catch me up. Are we still debating whether SS is a socialist program? or has that been conceded and we've moved on to whether socialism is good or not?

Why are you trying to dumb this down so much? The real world isn't that simple. Of course Social Security leans socialist - the 'social' is in the **** name of the program.

The question you ask - "is socialism good or not" - is so annoying simplistic that it has no real relevance. We've always has social elements to our society - and when we've added them (such as social security) we've done so to correct very grave problems with the other main strand in our society - capitalism.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

OK, good enough. SS was created by FDR. Tell me why and then I'll tell you that it isn't accomplishing what it was created for.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social Security is one of the most efficient programs out there (last number I saw was about 2% overhead).

Huh! Social Security is a big Ponzi scheme.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The following is more from the top Nazi;


I just don't know how you can read that and say the Nazi's weren't socialists.

He also claimed the Jews were going to a farm in Poland where they could run free.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

OK, good enough. SS was created by FDR. Tell me why and then I'll tell you that it isn't accomplishing what it was created for.

Q4: Is it true that Social Security was originally just a retirement program?

A: Yes. Under the 1935 law, what we now think of as Social Security only paid retirement benefits to the primary worker. A 1939 change in the law added survivors benefits and benefits for the retiree's spouse and children. In 1956 disability benefits were added.

Keep in mind, however, that the Social Security Act itself was much broader than just the program which today we commonly describe as "Social Security." The original 1935 law contained the first national unemployment compensation program, aid to the states for various health and welfare programs, and the Aid to Dependent Children program.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

Sounds to me like its doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

OK, good enough. SS was created by FDR. Tell me why and then I'll tell you that it isn't accomplishing what it was created for.

Are you purposefully ignoring what he is saying or are you pulling the O'Reilly and changing the argument when you have nothing to say. Jesus we get it SS sucks, no one is even really disputing it but he has stated that socialism has been around since the beginning and the SS is just one example that happens to be rather current. Now either you agree with that or you don't...which is it.

And if the Nazi's were socialists then Ghengis Khan was egalitarian.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

He also claimed the Jews were going to a farm in Poland where they could run free.

Are you saying liars can't be socialists? or that he was lying about nationalizing banks and industry? Because he did nationalize those things. For gods sake people, pick up a history book.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Are you saying liars can't be socialists? or that he was lying about nationalizing banks and industry? Because he did nationalize those things. For gods sake people, pick up a history book.

If you must, fine argue his nationalization of the banks was a socialist means that played a part in reaching a fascist end, but to argue it makes a larger point about socialism as a whole is patently myopic. Hitler fancied himself an artist but I'd never attempt to extrapolate such a relatioship to the artistic community. Simply put, claiming Naziism = socialism ignores a significant chunk of what contributed to Hitler's master plan and something tells me the vast majority of extremist liberals that actually believe in a nanny-state want nothing to do with eliminating undesirables. Argue the merits or lack thereof of socialism and what part it actually plays in America today, but to in a comparison to the Nazis dumbs down the discussion.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Are you saying liars can't be socialists? or that he was lying about nationalizing banks and industry? Because he did nationalize those things. For gods sake people, pick up a history book.

Anybody can be a socialist, and anyone can be a liar. One has nothing to do with the other.

But since you have no implied that anyone who does anything that has a socialist lean is a true believer in socialism...shall we go over all the GOPer's that supported many of the socialist moves under Dubya? (including that Maverick John McCain) Are you saying they too are socialists? I mean the things they pushed for leaned that way and we all know that means they have to be socialist then.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Are you saying liars can't be socialists? or that he was lying about nationalizing banks and industry? Because he did nationalize those things. For gods sake people, pick up a history book.

He's saying that you can proclaim to be anything, but just saying it doesn't make it so.

You know, like how Obama was born in Hawaii.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

If you must, fine argue his nationalization of the banks was a socialist means that played a part in reaching a fascist end, but to argue it makes a larger point about socialism as a whole is patently myopic. Hitler fancied himself an artist but I'd never attempt to extrapolate such a relatioship to the artistic community. Simply put, claiming Naziism = socialism ignores a significant chunk of what contributed to Hitler's master plan and something tells me the vast majority of extremist liberals that actually believe in a nanny-state want nothing to do with eliminating undesirables. Argue the merits or lack thereof of socialism and what part it actually plays in America today, but to in a comparison to the Nazis dumbs down the discussion.

Go back to posts 481 & 482. I'm not arguing that being a socialist is the worst thing about Hitler. For all I care, that could have been his best trait. The reason he was a socialist is not because he called himself one, but rather because of his economic policies. To argue that he wasn't ignores the facts. I get the feeling that there are socialists in America that are embarrassed that he was a socialist. Too bad. I'm embarrassed that the UnaBomber was a UM grad.

I don't think I've even tried to debate the merits of socialism here. I'm just trying to figure out how educated people can fail to see socialism when it's smack dab in front of their faces.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Anybody can be a socialist, and anyone can be a liar. One has nothing to do with the other.

But since you have no implied that anyone who does anything that has a socialist lean is a true believer in socialism...shall we go over all the GOPer's that supported many of the socialist moves under Dubya? (including that Maverick John McCain) Are you saying they too are socialists? I mean the things they pushed for leaned that way and we all know that means they have to be socialist then.

Absolutely!! Remind me of some of the socialists moves under Dubya. Because those are the ones I'm going to believe were the 'failed Bush policies' that everyone talked about during the campaign.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Absolutely!! Remind me of some of the socialists moves under Dubya. Because those are the ones I'm going to believe were the 'failed Bush policies' that everyone talked about during the campaign.

Medicare was expanded to cover prescription drugs. -Socialist
NCLB -Socialist

Probably the most socialist leaning legislation that has passed in the last 50 years.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social security has been distorted so far from what it was originally meant to be that it shouldn't even be called social security.

Social security wasn't meant as a retirement fund despite what the link above stated. It was originally a promise that the younger generation would take care of the older generation. It was originally meant as program just to put the bare essentials on your plate so that you wouldn't starve if you didn't have any means to provide for yourself if you so happened to live well beyond your life expectancy.

The notion that it is a retirement fund is why we have the problems we do today. It's been bastardized, amended, and abused to the point where the original meaning is lost. And that's why it's in the situation it's in now.