Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

[Patman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

A lot of scholars like to put fascism on the far right of the political spectrum, but a lot fascism's proponents consider it more of a third way different from either socialism and capitalism. Fascism is just another form of collectivism. Fascism advocates significant government control over business and labor, not exactly conservative/republican principals. Fascism is to a large degree anti-capitalist. Modern democrats are far closer to socialism politically than the republicans ever have been to fascism.

fascism was borne out of those who had a falling out with socialism... so many of the same ideals to benefit the world/state/community remain its just the practical means that differ. Fascism could be seen as a "pragmatic" alternative. You get business on board either through force or corruption and then you work towards your ideals.

I think more and more you'll see fascism as the pathway to socialism which is then, ideally, a path to communism (for those who believe in communism). Fascism gets business firmly under state control... after that's accepted then the argument becomes over the degree of control. The goal would then to blend the means of production into government to get to socialism... communism would be the next step.

I think you may see certain thinkers work in that direction. After all, if your goal is true socialism then fascism is a great tool to get it there. The two aren't mutually exclusive to say the least... those who say so are usually the ones that see Extreme Conservative=Racism=Nazism/Fascism... otherwise there are only a few other connections such as the view that Extreme Conservative=Police State=Nazism/Fascism... Nationalism is another one that follows that link. Again though, fascism's historical root is socialism and that can't be ignored.

Of course, Fascism can be seen as a goal to its own... you get the system in place and then bask in the greatness of that system... but it can certainly be an in between point for somebody with a further goal other than their own glory. Pragmatists wants to see solutions in their time frame... ideologues are happy enough to know that they worked towards the inevitable goal.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

A lot of scholars like to put fascism on the far right of the political spectrum, but a lot fascism's proponents consider it more of a third way different from either socialism and capitalism. Fascism is just another form of collectivism. Fascism advocates significant government control over business and labor, not exactly conservative/republican principals. Fascism is to a large degree anti-capitalist. Modern democrats are far closer to socialism politically than the republicans ever have been to fascism.

Nazi = National Socialist German Workers' Party

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Nazi = National Socialist German Workers' Party

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Nice try. If you did look it up you wouldn't have posted this.

You did mean Merriam-Webster, not the little guy from TV, right?


edit:

but, just to be sure we are talking the same Webster, here is the definition from the online version...

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


Now, why don't you tell your definition of Social Security.

...and for anyone in the class, how exactly is the US becoming socialist?

Social Security, for me, is the government taxation of one group of people (those still working) in order to distribute that money among another group of people (mostly those that have retired).

My definition sure sounds a lot like #3 above. Because that first group is getting smaller due to high unemployment and the second group is getting larger due to early retirements and living longer it's no wonder the pyramid is starting to crumble.

I thought most Lib's have conceded that SocSec is a socialist program and are defending it and socialism on their own 'merits'. It appears you guys still don't understand what socialism is all about. I find that very troubling.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social Security, for me, is the government taxation of one group of people (those still working) in order to distribute that money among another group of people (mostly those that have retired).

That's not entirely true. Generally to receive SS you have to contribute to SS. I get a statement every year from the government about how much I've contributed and what my payout is/would be when I start collecting.

ALSO, they only take out SS funds up to about 100,000 dollars of earnings. So, if you make more money or become "rich" so to speak you're not getting money "stolen" from you to give to someone else.

Now if you want to argue that SS crosses the line, that's fine. But SS does help a number of people live their life after they've retired if they have been unable to save for it.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social Security, for me, is the government taxation of one group of people (those still working) in order to distribute that money among another group of people (mostly those that have retired).

My definition sure sounds a lot like #3 above. Because that first group is getting smaller due to high unemployment and the second group is getting larger due to early retirements and living longer it's no wonder the pyramid is starting to crumble.

I thought most Lib's have conceded that SocSec is a socialist program and are defending it and socialism on their own 'merits'. It appears you guys still don't understand what socialism is all about. I find that very troubling.

Yeah, it is the rest of us that don't get it.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I see your eyes rolling but don't know what you mean. Do you disagree that SocSec is a socialist program? If so, tell me why you think that.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I see your eyes rolling but don't know what you mean. Do you disagree that SocSec is a socialist program? If so, tell me why you think that.

Parts of it are, parts of it aren't.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

That's not entirely true. Generally to receive SS you have to contribute to SS. I get a statement every year from the government about how much I've contributed and what my payout is/would be when I start collecting.

ALSO, they only take out SS funds up to about 100,000 dollars of earnings. So, if you make more money or become "rich" so to speak you're not getting money "stolen" from you to give to someone else.

Now if you want to argue that SS crosses the line, that's fine. But SS does help a number of people live their life after they've retired if they have been unable to save for it.

That third paragraph was the impetus for SS in the first place. When it was created there were only about 250,000 people collecting and 14 were paying in for every 1 collecting. Fast forward to 2010 and now there are over 40,000,000 people collecting and the ratio is down to 3:1. It's unsustainable.

That's why I'm against a gov't run health care system. It'll be like SS on steriods. created to help those that need help but eventually grow into something bigger, more bureaucratic, and more wasteful than SS could ever acheive.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Parts of it are, parts of it aren't.

what part isn't?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

what part isn't?

You have to pay in to get out. It's part pension plan part social safety net. Seems obvious to me. This is not Robin Hood stuff here. Did you read my breakdown or just concentrate on part 3 and how opposed to social safety nets you are?

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Of course social security has socialist elements. What the people screaming about socialism don't seem to get, however, is that our society has always had these strands of socialism. It's all shades of gray, not black and white.

That's why all the screaming about socialism is so hollow.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

You have to pay in to get out. It's part pension plan part social safety net. Seems obvious to me. This is not Robin Hood stuff here. Did you read my breakdown or just concentrate on part 3 and how opposed to social safety nets you are?

Just because you pay in, in order to recieve, doesn't make it any less socialist as long as it's administered by the government. In this case, the 'goods' are pension and retiement plans.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Social Security wasn't created until the 1930's. I'm pretty sure we got along without it much longer than we have with it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Just because you pay in, in order to recieve, doesn't make it any less socialist as long as it's administered by the government. In this case, the 'goods' are pension and retiement plans.

If it were truly socialist you wouldn't stop paying into it at 100,000 and everyone would get the exact same size check every month.

That's not what happens.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

If it were truly socialist you wouldn't stop paying into it at 100,000 and everyone would get the exact same size check every month.

That's not what happens.

What? I didn't find that part in the definition of socialism.

You sound like Miracle Max, "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST. There's a big difference between mostly <STRIKE>dead</strike> SOCIALIST and all <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST. Mostly <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST is slightly alive."

If it were truly NOT socialist, you would have the option to not pay in at all. That's how my 401 operates and it's truly capitalist. If I don't pay in, I don't get any back.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

What? I didn't find that part in the definition of socialism.

You sound like Miracle Max, "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST. There's a big difference between mostly <STRIKE>dead</strike> SOCIALIST and all <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST. Mostly <STRIKE> dead </strike> SOCIALIST is slightly alive."

If it were truly NOT socialist, you would have the option to not pay in at all. That's how my 401 operates and it's truly capitalist. If I don't pay in, I don't get any back.

Yes, I caught that. You don't like the social safety net part of it. No one does...........until they need it. Also, having all those poor people living in your cities in squalor and in cardboard boxes under bridges doesn't make you look so good.

I don't care either way. Social Security could die tomorrow and I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Apparently Evan Bayh, a moderate Dem, from the Red-Purple state of Indiana is not running for re-election.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Yes, I caught that. You don't like the social safety net part of it. No one does...........until they need it. Also, having all those poor people living in your cities in squalor and in cardboard boxes under bridges doesn't make you look so good.

I don't care either way. Social Security could die tomorrow and I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

So you're saying as long as we keep SS we won't have poor people living in squalor and in cardboard boxes under bridges?

Personally, I DO like the safety net part of it. I just think that private citizens or a private org. could do a better job of it than the federal gov't.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

So you're saying as long as we keep SS we won't have poor people living in squalor and in cardboard boxes under bridges?

Personally, I DO like the safety net part of it. I just think that private citizens or a private org. could do a better job of it than the federal gov't.

No, I said nothing of the sort. You'd have even more if you didn't have safety nets.

You like the safety net, yet you hate socialism. Social Security is one of the most efficient programs out there (last number I saw was about 2% overhead). I guess the private sector always does everything better, that's why the government does so much.

Tell me. How good a job is the private sector doing on Health Care right now? Are they solving the problems? Oh, yeah, that's right. They solve the problem by eliminating the safety net component (drop for pre-existing, drop for using it too much, etc.).

The private sector rocks. I love their airlines and car companies, and banks.