walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Yeah, its really a shame everyone in DC is a lying sack of ___.
Yeah, its really a shame everyone in DC is a lying sack of ___.
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Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
- Thread starter Plante26
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Priceless
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Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
How else do you expect them to get elected?
How else do you expect them to get elected?
SPIN CONTROL
is in charge
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Dougl Schoen and Scott Rasmussen summed up the politics of this bill quite nicely last week:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704784904575111993559174212.html
Here are some highlights....
In 15 consecutive Rasmussen Reports polls conducted over the past four months, the percentage of Americans that oppose the plan has stayed between 52% and 58%. The number in favor has held steady between 38% and 44%.
But the bigger problem is that people simply don't trust the official projections. People in Washington may live and die by the pronouncements of the Congressional Budget Office, but 81% of voters say it's likely the plan will end up costing more than projected. Only 10% say the official numbers are likely to be on target.
As a result, 66% of voters believe passage of the president's plan will lead to higher deficits and 78% say it's at least somewhat likely to mean higher middle-class taxes. Even within the president's own political party there are concerns on these fronts.
The proposed increase in government spending creates problems for advocates of reform beyond the perceived impact on deficits and the economy. Fifty-nine percent of voters say that the biggest problem with the health-care system is the cost: They want reform that will bring down the cost of care. For these voters, the notion that you need to spend an additional trillion dollars doesn't make sense. If the program is supposed to save money, why does it cost anything at all?
On top of that, most voters expect that passage of the congressional plan will increase the cost of care at the same time it drives up government spending. Only 17% now believe it will reduce the cost of care.
The final piece of the puzzle is that the overwhelming majority of voters have insurance coverage, and 76% rate their own coverage as good or excellent. Half of these voters say it's likely that if the congressional health bill becomes law, they would be forced to switch insurance coverage—a prospect hardly anyone ever relishes. These numbers have barely moved for months: Nothing the president has said has reassured people on this point.
Dougl Schoen and Scott Rasmussen summed up the politics of this bill quite nicely last week:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704784904575111993559174212.html
Here are some highlights....
In 15 consecutive Rasmussen Reports polls conducted over the past four months, the percentage of Americans that oppose the plan has stayed between 52% and 58%. The number in favor has held steady between 38% and 44%.
But the bigger problem is that people simply don't trust the official projections. People in Washington may live and die by the pronouncements of the Congressional Budget Office, but 81% of voters say it's likely the plan will end up costing more than projected. Only 10% say the official numbers are likely to be on target.
As a result, 66% of voters believe passage of the president's plan will lead to higher deficits and 78% say it's at least somewhat likely to mean higher middle-class taxes. Even within the president's own political party there are concerns on these fronts.
The proposed increase in government spending creates problems for advocates of reform beyond the perceived impact on deficits and the economy. Fifty-nine percent of voters say that the biggest problem with the health-care system is the cost: They want reform that will bring down the cost of care. For these voters, the notion that you need to spend an additional trillion dollars doesn't make sense. If the program is supposed to save money, why does it cost anything at all?
On top of that, most voters expect that passage of the congressional plan will increase the cost of care at the same time it drives up government spending. Only 17% now believe it will reduce the cost of care.
The final piece of the puzzle is that the overwhelming majority of voters have insurance coverage, and 76% rate their own coverage as good or excellent. Half of these voters say it's likely that if the congressional health bill becomes law, they would be forced to switch insurance coverage—a prospect hardly anyone ever relishes. These numbers have barely moved for months: Nothing the president has said has reassured people on this point.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Sad thing is people believe this BS.
Sad thing is people believe this BS.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
The CBO is a great example of garbage in, garbage out. They take cooked up estimates from partisans and then add a big dose of politics to come up with whatever answers 'feel' right. And they think it is all impartial and nothing but science/math.
You could point out to them 100 times that the estimate used by the proponent of a bill is an exaggerated figure with less than 10% chance of occurring but if that is what they want to use then that is the number.
It isn't intentional lying or misrepresentation, it is selective digging/believing and lack of intellectual curiousity when the right answer will be unpopular with certain political forces.
The CBO is a great example of garbage in, garbage out. They take cooked up estimates from partisans and then add a big dose of politics to come up with whatever answers 'feel' right. And they think it is all impartial and nothing but science/math.
You could point out to them 100 times that the estimate used by the proponent of a bill is an exaggerated figure with less than 10% chance of occurring but if that is what they want to use then that is the number.
It isn't intentional lying or misrepresentation, it is selective digging/believing and lack of intellectual curiousity when the right answer will be unpopular with certain political forces.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Oh good Lord the guy meant to say 3000 bucks instead of 3000%. While Red Cloud's problems are well documented and maybe he can't help himself, I do find it amusing that Maine fans, proponents of the dirtiest program in college hockey history, would engage in this sort of behavior.
You know knucks, willful stupidity is pretty much what the Bush administration was all about, and that didn't work out to well for all of us, now did it.
Oh good Lord the guy meant to say 3000 bucks instead of 3000%. While Red Cloud's problems are well documented and maybe he can't help himself, I do find it amusing that Maine fans, proponents of the dirtiest program in college hockey history, would engage in this sort of behavior.
You know knucks, willful stupidity is pretty much what the Bush administration was all about, and that didn't work out to well for all of us, now did it.
dropthatpuck
In Vino Veritas
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Huh? Pay more attention to the peeps that actually write the dog****, loophole laden legislation that the hood ornaments never read?
They're part of the friggen' problem.
Huh? Pay more attention to the peeps that actually write the dog****, loophole laden legislation that the hood ornaments never read?
They're part of the friggen' problem.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Sounds like a tremendous reason to wholly alter society. Health care, immigration, college funding. Piles upon piles of dollars... nobody realizes how the democrats want to fundamentally change the nation to fit their own idealistic notions the rest of us be ****ed?
Sounds like a tremendous reason to wholly alter society. Health care, immigration, college funding. Piles upon piles of dollars... nobody realizes how the democrats want to fundamentally change the nation to fit their own idealistic notions the rest of us be ****ed?
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Both sides do. most of CBO projections are based on recent history projected out into the future with standard deviations thrown in.
So mathematically it's accurate if the projection/estimate repeats itself. like our looming crisis in the unfunded liability of SS and medicaid/care is just an estimate that republicans love to throw out there. The supposed point of this healthcare reform. I still haven't seen any ideas from republicans in slowing this massive inflation in healthcare costs.. I don't think vouchers or subsidizing insurance payments will lower costs.
I think the author has it right. he blames the special interest groups to agitate the populace at the extreme ends into a frenzy to take control of the debate. And we see that here clearly... blame the corporations > government > politicians > voters > special interest > and so on ad infinitum.
there is enough blame to go around, but that doesn't fix the worst financial crisis since the great depression nor will it fix the looming fiscal crisis. To do that you need to fix the problem makers and unfortunately only "impartial" ref we can trust is the government and the only power that can do so.
Both sides do. most of CBO projections are based on recent history projected out into the future with standard deviations thrown in.
So mathematically it's accurate if the projection/estimate repeats itself. like our looming crisis in the unfunded liability of SS and medicaid/care is just an estimate that republicans love to throw out there. The supposed point of this healthcare reform. I still haven't seen any ideas from republicans in slowing this massive inflation in healthcare costs.. I don't think vouchers or subsidizing insurance payments will lower costs.
I think the author has it right. he blames the special interest groups to agitate the populace at the extreme ends into a frenzy to take control of the debate. And we see that here clearly... blame the corporations > government > politicians > voters > special interest > and so on ad infinitum.
there is enough blame to go around, but that doesn't fix the worst financial crisis since the great depression nor will it fix the looming fiscal crisis. To do that you need to fix the problem makers and unfortunately only "impartial" ref we can trust is the government and the only power that can do so.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Lets recall the only solution the dems have to health care thus far can be explained in the following line: Let the elderly die.
So far they have admitted that most costs are "end of life" costs... not so much the other parts where they claim small savings such as streamlining testing issues and leveraging drug companies to become quasi-state entities.
Lets not kid ourselves on whom we're dealing with. Just look at the words they use when they think they're in like company. They have this all solved. This is why the Dems have done very little rhetorical argument of what they're working on. They know it'd be a colossal failure with the people. Let them debate the parts... they haven't so far because they can't. They have the means, and certainly the MSM has given them the avenues by way of entire blocks of programming time. There's a lot here that's meant to be unseen but has been solved by the "right people". If that weren't true then they'd be open with all these parts instead of trying to pass it all on a procedural option of a sub-committee.
Lets recall the only solution the dems have to health care thus far can be explained in the following line: Let the elderly die.
So far they have admitted that most costs are "end of life" costs... not so much the other parts where they claim small savings such as streamlining testing issues and leveraging drug companies to become quasi-state entities.
Lets not kid ourselves on whom we're dealing with. Just look at the words they use when they think they're in like company. They have this all solved. This is why the Dems have done very little rhetorical argument of what they're working on. They know it'd be a colossal failure with the people. Let them debate the parts... they haven't so far because they can't. They have the means, and certainly the MSM has given them the avenues by way of entire blocks of programming time. There's a lot here that's meant to be unseen but has been solved by the "right people". If that weren't true then they'd be open with all these parts instead of trying to pass it all on a procedural option of a sub-committee.
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walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
I didn't realize it was dirty to use google. I guess when you got nothing make stuff up, Wow, just like Obama.
I do find it amusing that Maine fans, proponents of the dirtiest program in college hockey history, would engage in this sort of behavior.
I didn't realize it was dirty to use google. I guess when you got nothing make stuff up, Wow, just like Obama.
eaglehockeyrules
BC '84, HES '97
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Oh come now, if Bush had made that gaff, it would have been national news and the likes of Olberman would be frothing at the mouth at W's mistake. What's good for the goose...
I suppose Obie did not have his teleprompter with him.
Oh come now, if Bush had made that gaff, it would have been national news and the likes of Olberman would be frothing at the mouth at W's mistake. What's good for the goose...
I suppose Obie did not have his teleprompter with him.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Yeah, but what's not funny is how the Republicans squandered their opportunity and proved to anyone with a brain how they cannot be trusted with power.
This nation cannot solve problems. I'm betting on no passage of Health Care and the Wall Street Bill. How stupid do Democrats have to be to have Chris Dodds heading that up? Please.
Yeah, but what's not funny is how the Republicans squandered their opportunity and proved to anyone with a brain how they cannot be trusted with power.
This nation cannot solve problems. I'm betting on no passage of Health Care and the Wall Street Bill. How stupid do Democrats have to be to have Chris Dodds heading that up? Please.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
I tried not to imply that they always go in one direction. When a committee or particular congressperson's office provides the initial supporting information to the CBO there is a tremendous assumption made regarding the veracity of that information...sometimes they dig in and sometimes they scrape at the surface to make a show of digging. When the 'other side' provides information to blunt or modify the original position the same assumptions and judgments are made regarding diggin in.
Nobody walks in saying 2+2=5...the issue is far less obvious. To your point, whether the trend is repeating, whether one time impacts have been normalized, whether the causality of the trend is clearly explained is all subjective. The people making the case are not obligated to show contrary information nor do they clearly explain the probability of their assumptions coming to fruition.
So, the CBO takes assumptions from partisans and tries to validate and evaluate...there are reasons why that doesn't happen perfectly.
I tried not to imply that they always go in one direction. When a committee or particular congressperson's office provides the initial supporting information to the CBO there is a tremendous assumption made regarding the veracity of that information...sometimes they dig in and sometimes they scrape at the surface to make a show of digging. When the 'other side' provides information to blunt or modify the original position the same assumptions and judgments are made regarding diggin in.
Nobody walks in saying 2+2=5...the issue is far less obvious. To your point, whether the trend is repeating, whether one time impacts have been normalized, whether the causality of the trend is clearly explained is all subjective. The people making the case are not obligated to show contrary information nor do they clearly explain the probability of their assumptions coming to fruition.
So, the CBO takes assumptions from partisans and tries to validate and evaluate...there are reasons why that doesn't happen perfectly.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Nearly one-third of physicians are likely to leave medicine if Obamacare passes according to a New England Journal of Medicine study
Nearly one-third of physicians are likely to leave medicine if Obamacare passes according to a New England Journal of Medicine study
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Why did I know you'd be posting O'Reilly's talking points from last night? Good job outta you.
Why did I know you'd be posting O'Reilly's talking points from last night? Good job outta you.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
You probably also didn't realize that its dirty to have boosters pay players to come play hockey for your school. That's the Maine way. Whenever I see one of you 'fans' cry about underhanded tactics, I have to wonder if you disavowed your favorite college hockey team and their tainted accomplishments? I'm guessing probably not.
You probably also didn't realize that its dirty to have boosters pay players to come play hockey for your school. That's the Maine way. Whenever I see one of you 'fans' cry about underhanded tactics, I have to wonder if you disavowed your favorite college hockey team and their tainted accomplishments? I'm guessing probably not.
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
Thats right, my first post of the day was 3 hrs ago but I waited until now to post that just to throw you off.
While I do watch O'Reilly I didn't see it last night. And even if that was where I got the info, how about you deal with the argument at hand rather than who might have said it.
Thats right, my first post of the day was 3 hrs ago but I waited until now to post that just to throw you off.
While I do watch O'Reilly I didn't see it last night. And even if that was where I got the info, how about you deal with the argument at hand rather than who might have said it.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.
I'd rather talk about how Chris Dodd is heading up the Senate version of the new Wall Street Bill. Legislation that is sorely needed after a bunch of rich people played Vegas style casino games with the finances of the nation.
Health Care's dead. The epic failure will be heard round the globe. Government health care is so bad that not even America can do it right. We're all a bunch of failures.
Thats right, my first post of the day was 3 hrs ago but I waited until now to post that just to throw you off.
While I do watch O'Reilly I didn't see it last night. And even if that was where I got the info, how about you deal with the argument at hand rather than who might have said it.
I'd rather talk about how Chris Dodd is heading up the Senate version of the new Wall Street Bill. Legislation that is sorely needed after a bunch of rich people played Vegas style casino games with the finances of the nation.
Health Care's dead. The epic failure will be heard round the globe. Government health care is so bad that not even America can do it right. We're all a bunch of failures.
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