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Norwich going DI?
- Thread starter The Real Georgia Peach
- Start date
Re: Norwich going DI?
) D1 schools. Has a possible all-Vermont tournament ever been discussed? Maybe the 3 D3 schools (NU, Midd and Castleton) plus alternating UVM and St Mike's? That could be really fun, I think. It might take up some of the slack if the interlock ever did get ... uh, unlocked. It would be a natural for a Tuesday night game like the St Mike's and Plattsburgh games are now.
Any support for this one?
I have talked about this with other people in VT, and though I have never mentioned it here, an end of year award presented by the Governor, or other state icon, as the best DII/DIII team in VT based on their head to head record in their ECAC/NESCAC interlock games. We could call it the VT State Championship, or the Governor's Cup, or the Green Mountain Champs etc.... heading into the last weekend or prior to the first playoff game a large traveling trophy would be presented to the VT team (Castleton, Norwich, SMC, & Midd) who had the best record in the 3 games against their in state competition with tie breaker being head to head then goals scored. It would be pretty simple and it would get more press for all three programs, and stoke up a little bit more of a rivalry between all three.
This could happen and should happen IMO anyone see why this would not work or be a bad idea? How would I get something like this started?
) D1 schools. Has a possible all-Vermont tournament ever been discussed? Maybe the 3 D3 schools (NU, Midd and Castleton) plus alternating UVM and St Mike's? That could be really fun, I think. It might take up some of the slack if the interlock ever did get ... uh, unlocked. It would be a natural for a Tuesday night game like the St Mike's and Plattsburgh games are now.
Any support for this one?
I have talked about this with other people in VT, and though I have never mentioned it here, an end of year award presented by the Governor, or other state icon, as the best DII/DIII team in VT based on their head to head record in their ECAC/NESCAC interlock games. We could call it the VT State Championship, or the Governor's Cup, or the Green Mountain Champs etc.... heading into the last weekend or prior to the first playoff game a large traveling trophy would be presented to the VT team (Castleton, Norwich, SMC, & Midd) who had the best record in the 3 games against their in state competition with tie breaker being head to head then goals scored. It would be pretty simple and it would get more press for all three programs, and stoke up a little bit more of a rivalry between all three.
This could happen and should happen IMO anyone see why this would not work or be a bad idea? How would I get something like this started?
Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: Norwich going DI?
RPI is in the same situation as Clarkson, having only m & w hockey as D-I, however, they have spent a lot of money recently upgrading their D-III facilities. http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=840230
RPI is in the same situation as Clarkson, having only m & w hockey as D-I, however, they have spent a lot of money recently upgrading their D-III facilities. http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=840230
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Norwich going DI?
I am surprised by Oswego's women's team; I had attributed Plattsburgh's Women's team incredible success in large part to men's team's historical success and legacy - and subsequently "top-of-mind awareness" among all ice hockey athletes - men and women. Certainly the fact that Kevin Houle was directly associated with much of the men's success is a factor lacking at Oswego; I still have anticipated better performance from Oswego's women's team.
That's already the case at Oswego as a D-III school.
I am surprised by Oswego's women's team; I had attributed Plattsburgh's Women's team incredible success in large part to men's team's historical success and legacy - and subsequently "top-of-mind awareness" among all ice hockey athletes - men and women. Certainly the fact that Kevin Houle was directly associated with much of the men's success is a factor lacking at Oswego; I still have anticipated better performance from Oswego's women's team.
Re: Norwich going DI?
Norwich's women's program is becoming very good. They still have a ways to to reach the same level as the men's program, but the rather quick rise (they are in their third year as a varsity program, were in the NCAAs last year) can be attributed to administrative support and exactly what you said about Plattsburgh's success. The fact that they are coached by a former NU hockey captain who knows the institution and its values inside out doesn't hurt either. This year will see the first ever NU/Midd women's game, and NU played the Plattsburgh women earlier this year and didn't totally embarrass themselves.
Norwich's women's program is becoming very good. They still have a ways to to reach the same level as the men's program, but the rather quick rise (they are in their third year as a varsity program, were in the NCAAs last year) can be attributed to administrative support and exactly what you said about Plattsburgh's success. The fact that they are coached by a former NU hockey captain who knows the institution and its values inside out doesn't hurt either. This year will see the first ever NU/Midd women's game, and NU played the Plattsburgh women earlier this year and didn't totally embarrass themselves.
Re: Norwich going DI?
As an RIT fan, I completely agree that in recent years they really didn't fit in DIII. I just don't see 14,000+ students as fitting into the traditional DIII mold.
As far as the Womens program I think it was a matter of timing. If I recall the NCAA slammed the moratorium in place right after the Tigers Men made the announcment. My guess is that as soon as the moratorium is lifted the Women will move to the CHA.
At the time of the announcement, I wasn't real enthusiastic about the prospect of the move. I would have preferred to have stayed in DIII where you could reasonably compete for a national championship. I also envisioned some really awful seasons and brutal games. Since the move though, I am a convert. The Tigers have kept every season interesting right to the end. They've been 1st or 2nd in the AHA every year, and are leading this year. Along the way have had some great nights. Beating Minnesota at Marriuci was awesome. Ticked off more than a few Gopher fans. Coming out the next night and going into the 3rd period against BC down 1-0 was great. I try to forget the 5 goals in the last 17 minutes. There have been some bad nights too, the New Years weekend series last month with Minnesota State really showed the differences between the WCHA and the AHA. Two words - Big & Fast. I don't expect to see RIT skating away with a national championship any time soon. And you know what, as a fan I don't really care.
In terms of Norwich or another DIII school moving up, All it takes in institutional commitment and the $$$ to back that up. Finding a place to play is the problem. Of course if enough decide to move up I'm sure Alabama Huntsville would love to restart the CHA.
As an RIT fan, I completely agree that in recent years they really didn't fit in DIII. I just don't see 14,000+ students as fitting into the traditional DIII mold.
As far as the Womens program I think it was a matter of timing. If I recall the NCAA slammed the moratorium in place right after the Tigers Men made the announcment. My guess is that as soon as the moratorium is lifted the Women will move to the CHA.
At the time of the announcement, I wasn't real enthusiastic about the prospect of the move. I would have preferred to have stayed in DIII where you could reasonably compete for a national championship. I also envisioned some really awful seasons and brutal games. Since the move though, I am a convert. The Tigers have kept every season interesting right to the end. They've been 1st or 2nd in the AHA every year, and are leading this year. Along the way have had some great nights. Beating Minnesota at Marriuci was awesome. Ticked off more than a few Gopher fans. Coming out the next night and going into the 3rd period against BC down 1-0 was great. I try to forget the 5 goals in the last 17 minutes. There have been some bad nights too, the New Years weekend series last month with Minnesota State really showed the differences between the WCHA and the AHA. Two words - Big & Fast. I don't expect to see RIT skating away with a national championship any time soon. And you know what, as a fan I don't really care.
In terms of Norwich or another DIII school moving up, All it takes in institutional commitment and the $$$ to back that up. Finding a place to play is the problem. Of course if enough decide to move up I'm sure Alabama Huntsville would love to restart the CHA.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
That was the plan, but they didn't act fast enough before the moratorium got put into place.
That was the plan, but they didn't act fast enough before the moratorium got put into place.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
But that wasn't the case when RIT initially looked into the idea of moving all their sports to D1. Who knows what they are thinking now if the process changes drastically.
No decision was made in the first place, just serious consideration. Obviously, as factors change, so might the consideration.
But that wasn't the case when RIT initially looked into the idea of moving all their sports to D1. Who knows what they are thinking now if the process changes drastically.
No decision was made in the first place, just serious consideration. Obviously, as factors change, so might the consideration.
Derek Dunning
Women's Division III Correspondent
Re: Norwich going DI?
As a fan it's got to be pretty cool to be able to see top end D-III talent or better on every night regardless of who you are playing.
It'd be awesome to see Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent or Elmira/Manhattanville type talent every night for 40 games a year
As a fan it's got to be pretty cool to be able to see top end D-III talent or better on every night regardless of who you are playing.
It'd be awesome to see Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent or Elmira/Manhattanville type talent every night for 40 games a year
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
Why don't we continue onward to the east side of the Raquette River to the only school in town that's actually won a national championship? Two in fact!
The BB team has gotten a lot better and I think made it to the NCAAs recently. Baseball, I think, got in too last year.
However, 11 miles south there's a school that busts your theory. St. Lawrence has had very successful teams outside of hockey.
I think it was their men's soccer team that won a national championship recently, or came very close. Back when Potsdam was a national BB power, one of their toughest competitors was SLU. They always seemed to square off against SLU in the NCAAs. Those were tough, tough games.
One of Potsdam's only two losses (both by one point) the first year they won the NC was to SLU (the other was to Albany, another great team during that era).
Plus, SLU has football. At times, a pretty good football team.
However, I do agree with you. There is tendency to pour support into the one D1 team that exists on campus. That was part of the motivation for the NCAA to discourage such a move.
Why don't we continue onward to the east side of the Raquette River to the only school in town that's actually won a national championship? Two in fact!
The BB team has gotten a lot better and I think made it to the NCAAs recently. Baseball, I think, got in too last year.
However, 11 miles south there's a school that busts your theory. St. Lawrence has had very successful teams outside of hockey.
I think it was their men's soccer team that won a national championship recently, or came very close. Back when Potsdam was a national BB power, one of their toughest competitors was SLU. They always seemed to square off against SLU in the NCAAs. Those were tough, tough games.
One of Potsdam's only two losses (both by one point) the first year they won the NC was to SLU (the other was to Albany, another great team during that era).
Plus, SLU has football. At times, a pretty good football team.
However, I do agree with you. There is tendency to pour support into the one D1 team that exists on campus. That was part of the motivation for the NCAA to discourage such a move.
Old Rook NU'66
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
Exactly my point, e.g. "the $$$ to back that up."
Norwich is well endowed but not rich like Middlebury or Williams--not even close. I have just read that Norwich is about to spend $5 million on artificial turf for Sabine Field with a complete upgrade and expansion of its grandstand, press box and VIP facilities. That facility will be now used not only for football but soccer and rugby as well. I have also learned that tuition is now $41,700 per year.
Norwich in my mind has more important priorities and commitments it must honor to other sports as well as in the classroom than a move to D1 hockey that might satisfy a few fans but undercut the rest of the university's strategic goals. Maybe not spoken like a real hockey fan but rather by an alum who loves his school and its mission as much as I love hockey.
Exactly my point, e.g. "the $$$ to back that up."
Norwich is well endowed but not rich like Middlebury or Williams--not even close. I have just read that Norwich is about to spend $5 million on artificial turf for Sabine Field with a complete upgrade and expansion of its grandstand, press box and VIP facilities. That facility will be now used not only for football but soccer and rugby as well. I have also learned that tuition is now $41,700 per year.
Norwich in my mind has more important priorities and commitments it must honor to other sports as well as in the classroom than a move to D1 hockey that might satisfy a few fans but undercut the rest of the university's strategic goals. Maybe not spoken like a real hockey fan but rather by an alum who loves his school and its mission
as much as I love hockey.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Norwich going DI?
Humm, ALL the games I've seen have had Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent
As a fan it's got to be pretty cool to be able to see top end D-III talent or better on every night regardless of who you are playing.
It'd be awesome to see Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent or Elmira/Manhattanville type talent every night for 40 games a year
Humm, ALL the games I've seen have had Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent
Derek Dunning
Women's Division III Correspondent
Re: Norwich going DI?
SLU has one of the finest D-III athletic programs in the country. They may not win as many national titles as some of the NESCAC schools but they do offer a WIDE ARRAY of sports on both the men's and women's sides and field competitive teams across the board as well as have some of the best facilities you will find in D-III.
If I had the money, I would have gladly have gone to St. Lawrence instead of Oswego for my four years.
Would have been on a much better cross country team and been able to watch D-I hockey night in and night out.
Cons though would have been much farther away from home and would have been paying almost three times the amount of money I paid to go to Oswego.
Why don't we continue onward to the east side of the Raquette River to the only school in town that's actually won a national championship? Two in fact!
The BB team has gotten a lot better and I think made it to the NCAAs recently. Baseball, I think, got in too last year.
However, 11 miles south there's a school that busts your theory. St. Lawrence has had very successful teams outside of hockey.
I think it was their men's soccer team that won a national championship recently, or came very close. Back when Potsdam was a national BB power, one of their toughest competitors was SLU. They always seemed to square off against SLU in the NCAAs. Those were tough, tough games.
One of Potsdam's only two losses (both by one point) the first year they won the NC was to SLU (the other was to Albany, another great team during that era).
Plus, SLU has football. At times, a pretty good football team.
However, I do agree with you. There is tendency to pour support into the one D1 team that exists on campus. That was part of the motivation for the NCAA to discourage such a move.
SLU has one of the finest D-III athletic programs in the country. They may not win as many national titles as some of the NESCAC schools but they do offer a WIDE ARRAY of sports on both the men's and women's sides and field competitive teams across the board as well as have some of the best facilities you will find in D-III.
If I had the money, I would have gladly have gone to St. Lawrence instead of Oswego for my four years.
Would have been on a much better cross country team and been able to watch D-I hockey night in and night out.
Cons though would have been much farther away from home and would have been paying almost three times the amount of money I paid to go to Oswego.
Derek Dunning
Women's Division III Correspondent
Re: Norwich going DI?
On both benches and all the way down to lines three and four? I think not
That's what I was talking about.
Humm, ALL the games I've seen have had Plattsburgh/Oswego type talent
On both benches and all the way down to lines three and four? I think not
That's what I was talking about.
Re: Norwich going DI?
I totally agree.....
If DI sports doesn't support the strategic plan of the institution, it will be doomed to failure. Based on the things I've read and heard, DI sports at RIT is being used to raise the visibility of the school as a whole. That's why I think the ulimate goal may be to move everything to DI. In a sense it's another tool to help the institution to continue to grow. Much like the increases in number of PhD offerings, and academic expansion into areas such as sustainability.
Norwich in my mind has more important priorities and commitments it must honor to other sports as well as in the classroom than a move to D1 hockey that might satisfy a few fans but undercut the rest of the university's strategic goals. Maybe not spoken like a real hockey fan but rather by an alum who loves his school and its mission
I totally agree.....
If DI sports doesn't support the strategic plan of the institution, it will be doomed to failure. Based on the things I've read and heard, DI sports at RIT is being used to raise the visibility of the school as a whole. That's why I think the ulimate goal may be to move everything to DI. In a sense it's another tool to help the institution to continue to grow. Much like the increases in number of PhD offerings, and academic expansion into areas such as sustainability.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Norwich going DI?
Quality article on Norwich's Endowment (I was going to say "nice article", but...)
(~$180,000,000 - about 1/5 the size of Middlebury's).
34. Williams College $1,808,280,000 -4.4%
40. Amherst College $1,705,917,000 +2.6%
83. Middlebury College $885,389,000 -5.4%
The Top 5:
1. Harvard University $36,556,284,000 +5.5%
2. Yale University $22,869,700,000 +1.5%
3. Stanford University $17,200,000,000 +.2%
4. Princeton University $16,349,329,000 +3.6%
5. University of Texas System $16,111,184,000 +3.2%
Quality article on Norwich's Endowment (I was going to say "nice article", but...)
(~$180,000,000 - about 1/5 the size of Middlebury's).
34. Williams College $1,808,280,000 -4.4%
40. Amherst College $1,705,917,000 +2.6%
83. Middlebury College $885,389,000 -5.4%
The Top 5:
1. Harvard University $36,556,284,000 +5.5%
2. Yale University $22,869,700,000 +1.5%
3. Stanford University $17,200,000,000 +.2%
4. Princeton University $16,349,329,000 +3.6%
5. University of Texas System $16,111,184,000 +3.2%
Last edited:
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
Holy crap!
I remember reading an article a long time ago that said something to the effect that either Princeton or Harvard could spend 1/4 of one percent of their endowment to allow every student to attend for free.
And then you see there are schools like Williams who could do the same but still charge ~$40,000 a year for tuition?
There is something seriously, seriously wrong with our educational system priorities when you see numbers like this.
P.S. Look up Cooper Union and what their philosophy is. They get it.
Holy crap!
I remember reading an article a long time ago that said something to the effect that either Princeton or Harvard could spend 1/4 of one percent of their endowment to allow every student to attend for free.
And then you see there are schools like Williams who could do the same but still charge ~$40,000 a year for tuition?
There is something seriously, seriously wrong with our educational system priorities when you see numbers like this.
P.S. Look up Cooper Union and what their philosophy is. They get it.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Norwich going DI?
A little perspective: (money goes to money?)
That is more than William's ENTIRE endowment!
A little perspective: (money goes to money?)
That is more than William's ENTIRE endowment!
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Norwich going DI?
Boggles the mind. And how much does Harvard still charge for tuition?
(That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want to know the answer...
)
Boggles the mind. And how much does Harvard still charge for tuition?
(That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want to know the answer...
)
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Norwich going DI?
But, they are 8th ranked in ECAC Hockey (Harvard: 5-6-3 - Overall: 5-12-3)
Boggles the mind. And how much does Harvard still charge for tuition?
(That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want to know the answer...
But, they are 8th ranked in ECAC Hockey (Harvard: 5-6-3 - Overall: 5-12-3)