Norwich going DI?

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I don't think that NU is likely to go DI, especially given the NCAA hurdles. The NCAA has set up DI as kind of an elite, and doesn't want to open up competition to anybody who might sully the neighborhood. It has been that way ever since the NCAA developed the Division system. In the 70s, they booted the Ivies out of DIA football because they didn't have enough attendance - this despite the fact that the Ivies were among the historically most significant football programs. They didn't fit the brand that the NCAA was developing. The Ivies answered by deemphasizing football, and DI football is all the poorer for it.

The NCAA doesn't want to allow smaller schools to compete on a level playing field with larger ones - somebody might steal some of their money from the DI professional basketball tour. Even the PGA/USGA/LPGA professional golf organizations make provisions for allowing amateurs to get to the top level of their competitions - the NCAA makes it impossible for a school to upgrade its athletic program to compete with the big boys - heaven forbid that a Union or RIT would have a fair chance to beat a Michigan or Michigan State in an NCAA tournament - the fact that they grandfathered programs in when they changed the rules is an inconvenient fact. Let schools determine their own competitive path. If a DIII school wants to play DI football, let them - seems foolish to me, but the NCAA should encourage Cinderella stories, not discourage them.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I don't think that NU is likely to go DI, especially given the NCAA hurdles. The NCAA has set up DI as kind of an elite, and doesn't want to open up competition to anybody who might sully the neighborhood. It has been that way ever since the NCAA developed the Division system. In the 70s, they booted the Ivies out of DIA football because they didn't have enough attendance - this despite the fact that the Ivies were among the historically most significant football programs. They didn't fit the brand that the NCAA was developing. The Ivies answered by deemphasizing football, and DI football is all the poorer for it.

The NCAA doesn't want to allow smaller schools to compete on a level playing field with larger ones - somebody might steal some of their money from the DI professional basketball tour. Even the PGA/USGA/LPGA professional golf organizations make provisions for allowing amateurs to get to the top level of their competitions - the NCAA makes it impossible for a school to upgrade its athletic program to compete with the big boys - heaven forbid that a Union or RIT would have a fair chance to beat a Michigan or Michigan State in an NCAA tournament - the fact that they grandfathered programs in when they changed the rules is an inconvenient fact. Let schools determine their own competitive path. If a DIII school wants to play DI football, let them - seems foolish to me, but the NCAA should encourage Cinderella stories, not discourage them.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I have an honest question (not trying to make any rhetorical point here, I just haven't followed this enough and am genuinely curious)

How is it that RIT has become relatively successful in Atlantic Hockey if they cannot give athletic scholarships, and they compete against schools which can?

Is there any particular reason this has been the case, and could other D3 programs expect to have similar results within a few seasons playing in that league? There are a few D3 programs that have facilities as nice or nicer than RIT's to attract some quality recruits if that is a factor.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I have an honest question (not trying to make any rhetorical point here, I just haven't followed this enough and am genuinely curious)

How is it that RIT has become relatively successful in Atlantic Hockey if they cannot give athletic scholarships, and they compete against schools which can?

Is there any particular reason this has been the case, and could other D3 programs expect to have similar results within a few seasons playing in that league? There are a few D3 programs that have facilities as nice or nicer than RIT's to attract some quality recruits if that is a factor.

Atlantic Hockey isn't very good. It is to DI hockey what the MCHA or ECAC NE are to DIII hockey. It is probably the only league where a DIII program could move into and become competitive quickly.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I have an honest question (not trying to make any rhetorical point here, I just haven't followed this enough and am genuinely curious)

How is it that RIT has become relatively successful in Atlantic Hockey if they cannot give athletic scholarships, and they compete against schools which can?

1) They compete in a conference that limits scholarships to begin with, so they didn't have as large of a hurdle to overcome (Niagara is going to have to give up scholarships when they join AH).

2) Union doesn't give scholarships out (school rule), and occassionally (okay, rarely) they are successful in the ECAC, especially this year.

3) The Ivy League schools have never given athletic scholarships out, and they have had some very good success in various sports, especially niche ones.

4) RIT can still give "aid" out just like D3 schools can (but not like Buffalo State and Geneseo... )

5) Hard work at recruiting.

6) Finding the diamonds in the rough that other schools passed up.

7) Compare to other AH schools, they have one of the better facilities in the conference.

8) Excellent coaching.

9) Strong administrative support.

10) They are motivated by wanting to p*ss off Remy.

 

[Old Rook NU'66]

Re: Norwich going DI?

WHAT IS IN IT FOR NORWICH? The question I asked earlier is not about the mechanics of the NCAA rules but what is in it for my university; Norwich--its students, its alumni, its fans and friends to give up what appears to be a consistent 1st Class D3 hockey program in lieu of what might become a 3rd Class D1 program?

Remember like any business a university must compromise on investment. Two new PhD math professors versus D1 Hockey. So tell me about the return on the investment that it will mean in just added travel costs to and from other D1 schools and why that is a good trade off against other investments the school might make?

Tell me how NU alumni are now better served when most of their alumni are Boston/New England based--and because NU clearly isn't going to be playing BC, BU, et al.

Tell me how NU becomes a better university by being a D1 hockey school?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

WHAT IS IN IT FOR NORWICH? The question I asked earlier is not about the mechanics of the NCAA rules but what is in it for my university; Norwich--its students, its alumni, its fans and friends to give up what appears to be a consistent 1st Class D3 hockey program in lieu of what might become a 3rd Class D1 program?

Remember like any business a university must compromise on investment. Two new PhD math professors versus D1 Hockey. So tell me about the return on the investment that it will mean in just added travel costs to and from other D1 schools and why that is a good trade off against other investments the school might make?

Tell me how NU alumni are now better served when most of their alumni are Boston/New England based--and because NU clearly isn't going to be playing BC, BU, et al.

Tell me how NU becomes a better university by being a D1 hockey school?

I aree with your points. I'm not in favor of making such a move. However, I would have loved it if my salary as a full professor of mathematics had been half the cost of upgrading the program to D1 For that price, I might not have retired .

As what President Schneider refers to as a "stakeholder" in the university, I'm quite happy with the decision to have a top quality DIII program.

I would be concerned about what happens to the program if the Interlock goes away. To take that discussion in a different direction, should NU consider moving to the ECAC West, and give the West its AQ? Playing two games a year against some of the weaker ECAC E programs doesn't help prepare a team for the NCAA tournament. Maybe that would be the response.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I would be concerned about what happens to the program if the Interlock goes away. To take that discussion in a different direction, should NU consider moving to the ECAC West, and give the West its AQ? Playing two games a year against some of the weaker ECAC E programs doesn't help prepare a team for the NCAA tournament. Maybe that would be the response.

I'm still trying to figure out why it's the end of the world if the interlock goes away.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I aree with your points. I'm not in favor of making such a move. However, I would have loved it if my salary as a full professor of mathematics had been half the cost of upgrading the program to D1 For that price, I might not have retired .

As what President Schneider refers to as a "stakeholder" in the university, I'm quite happy with the decision to have a top quality DIII program.

I would be concerned about what happens to the program if the Interlock goes away. To take that discussion in a different direction, should NU consider moving to the ECAC West, and give the West its AQ? Playing two games a year against some of the weaker ECAC E programs doesn't help prepare a team for the NCAA tournament. Maybe that would be the response.

IMO, you could upgrade (not create from scratch) from DIII to RIT style DI for the cost of adding "two new PhD math professors".

If handled RIT style, the cost of "upgrading" an existing quality DIII program to a DI program, likely isn't much more than the "actual" cost of "PhD math professors", note that "Salary" is at best only 75% and likely 60% of the "carrying cost" of the employee, once you add in mandated cost such as workers compensation, disability, matching social security deduction, and contracted benefits such as health insurance, retirement plans, sabbaticals, etc.

That said, travel expenses, could, if a reasonable league and schedule couldn't be worked out, ADD (to the existing travel budget) as much as another "PhD math professor", by itself.

 

[Old Rook NU'66]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I would be concerned about what happens to the program if the Interlock goes away. To take that discussion in a different direction, should NU consider moving to the ECAC West, and give the West its AQ? Playing two games a year against some of the weaker ECAC E programs doesn't help prepare a team for the NCAA tournament. Maybe that would be the response.

NU Prof is now addressing the real question of what it is in it for the university "stakeholders" be they hockey fans or not. I believe for a school its size with a reasonable endowment it has been well managed be it expansion of facilities, enlarging enrollment with an eye towards quality students and yes supporting a superb Division III hockey program. So the real question is how do you maintain that competitive edge in hockey without gutting other priorities like NU Prof's salary --maybe a move to the ECAC-West is an answer. By the way, how does the collapse of the interlock effect the quality of Middlebury, Bowdoin, Colby, et. al. hockey?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

IMO, you could upgrade (not create from scratch) from DIII to RIT style DI for the cost of adding "two new PhD math professors".

If handled RIT style, the cost of "upgrading" an existing quality DIII program to a DI program, likely isn't much more than the "actual" cost of "PhD math professors", note that "Salary" is at best only 75% and likely 60% of the "carrying cost" of the employee, once you add in mandated cost such as workers compensation, disability, matching social security deduction, and contracted benefits such as health insurance, retirement plans, sabbaticals, etc.

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

Dont tell that to RIT fans...

 

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

 

[Old Rook NU'66]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

Now that goes right to the heart of the issue and is spot on.

Now, to my other question. While NU certainly risks losing a competitive edge by only playing folks in the ECAC-E and might move to the ECAC-W to maintain it, doesn't the NESCAC also suffer the same fate?

I am sure it is nice to see Middlebury and Connecticut College play twice a year but what do two games against CC do to keep a competitive edge on Panther hockey or fill the seats at that new rink in Bowdoin? It seems to me that the stronger programs are hurt by this move. No?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

RIT leads Atlantic Hockey (15-4-1 - GF: 73, GA: 36), but has yet to win outside their conference (0-6-0 - GF: 9, GA: 23), it is results like that, that IMO, Norwich would be "aspiring" to produce. RIT is a tadpole in DI hockey.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

I was always of the opinion that RIT in DIII had the feeling of the old Sesame Street Song "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong ..."

I still don't get why Women's hockey at RIT is DIII. Isn't there a title IX issue with that?

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Norwich going DI?

RIT is a tadpole in DI hockey.

I agree for now they are.

But I think if they are seriously considering moving the whole athletic program up to D-I, RIT could become quite successful and could compete just as much as the ECAC schools if they had athletic scholarships.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree for now they are.

But I think if they are seriously considering moving the whole athletic program up to D-I, RIT could become quite successful and could compete just as much as the ECAC schools if they had athletic scholarships.

They'd sure have to serve a lot of time in the upgrade process to qualify if I read the previous posts correctly.

 

[joecct]

Re: Norwich going DI?

Let us travel a few hours to the west along Rt 11 in New York (a trip familiar to at least one aspiring cadet) and stop on the west side of the Raquette River.

Clarkson University, up until a few years ago, was a national power in men's D-1 ice hockey. The women's D-1 ice hockey program is nationally ranked and is in 1st place in the ECAC (the men, ahem, are at the other end of the standings).

All is well and good for the D-1 side of the house, but look at the D-III athletics. Sorry - uncompetitive. When one of CCT's sports do make the NCAA tournament it is via a tournament upset. The other sports are not well attended (in my 5 years @ CCT I think I went to 3 basketball games - they were horrid).

Is this what you want for Norwich athletics? The resouces and attention will be showered upon the D-1 program(s) -- because make no mistake, as soon as the men jump to D-1, the women's ice hockey team will not be far behind. The rest of the sports on campus will be the ugly step sister.