No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

[Kepler]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

No, Bob does disagree with you. And he keeps bringing it up over and over again.

Nah, I don't think so. I fear Bob thinks I believe everybody who goes to church is ready to wear a suicide vest. That's not true, but I tend to emphasize that it's religious craziness in general rather than Islamic craziness in particular that is behind the belief that one has a right to take another life in the name of butter-side up vs butter-side down. Just a difference in emphasis. I always think if Bob and I had a 15-minute phone conversation rather than these inefficient and annoying exchanges of lengthy forum comments, we'd respectfully disagree on about 90% of policy positions but agree on about 99% of fundamental values.

There are bomb-throwers on the forum, but he's not one at all. (Except on immigration. But we're all entitled to one issue of utter craziness. )

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

The article I linked to about the murder of the NATO personnel touches on this -- in traditional Muslim society blasphemy gets punished with the death penalty. So part of this is a genuine cultural misunderstanding -- we see a mind-boggling assymetry between a bozo exercising his free speech rights in the stupidest way possibly and a murderous rampage resulting in death. They (the religious fanatics) don't see that as a glaring overreaction. But, even granting that, the murder if innocent people can never be justified. Hence the suggestion that Jones be repatrioted to Kabul to test the courage of his convictions.

At least the rest of the Muslim world, as far as I've noticed in headlines, hasn't gone bonkers over this, whereas some other events, like that Danish cartoonist, got people rioting in quite a few places across the Muslim world.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Nah, I don't think so. I fear Bob thinks I believe everybody who goes to church is ready to wear a suicide vest. That's not true, but I tend to emphasize that it's religious craziness in general rather than Islamic craziness in particular that is behind the belief that one has a right to take another's life in the name of butter-side up vs butter-side down. Just a difference in emphasis. I always think if Bob and I had a 15-minute phone conversation rather than these inefficient and annoying exchnages of lengthy forum comments, we'd respectfully disagree on about 90% of policy positions but fundamentally agree on about 99% of fundamental values.

There are bomb-throwers on the forum, but he's not one at all. (Except in immigration. But we're all entitled to one issue of utter craziness. )

Hey, if wanting a secure border in my state is crazy, then I'm glad to to be crazy. Insert quote of choice from fellow Arizonan Barry Goldwater. I've always held that it's easy to call someone crazy when we aren't close to a situation and that other person is. One gets a lot more upset when seeing one's own home burn down than seeing one burn down two blocks away. I guarantee that a lot of folks who poo-poo border problems in Arizona on this board would change their tune if they lived here for awhile.

 

[Kepler]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Hey, if wanting a secure border in my state is crazy, then I'm glad to to be crazy. Insert quote of choice from fellow Arizonan Barry Goldwater. I've always held that it's easy to call someone crazy when we aren't close to a situation and that other person is. One gets a lot more upset when seeing one's own home burn down than seeing one burn down two blocks away. I guarantee that a lot of folks who poo-poo border problems in Arizona on this board would change their tune if they lived here for awhile.

That's fair. It kind of underlines my point about it being easy for us to dictate to the Afghans how to handle their situation, too.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

That's fair. It kind of underlines my point about it being easy for us to dictate to the Afghans how to handle their situation, too.

Difference is, us Arizonans aren't going out and killing illegals and drug runners when they peeve us. But, as has been noted, different cultures, one in which it's much more acceptable to kill innocents.

 

[Kepler]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Difference is, us Arizonans aren't going out and killing illegals and drug runners when they peeve us. But, as has been noted, different cultures, one in which it's much more acceptable to kill innocents.

There are more differences than that, hopefully. For one thing, the Afghan climate is much more attractive.

 

[bronconick]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

The most interesting theory I've found is that Islamic culture is still struggling in their dark ages stemming back to the destruction of Baghdad in 1258 by the Mongols. Reasons given are that Europe took about 900-1,000 years to recover from the fall of Rome and the Russians' paranoia toward outsiders is generally believed to have began from the Mongols ripping through Russia in the 20-30 years before Baghdad.

 

[Kepler]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

The most interesting theory I've found is that Islamic culture is still struggling in their dark ages stemming back to the destruction of Baghdad in 1258 by the Mongols. Reasons given are that Europe took about 900-1,000 years to recover from the fall of Rome and the Russians' paranoia toward outsiders is generally believed to have began from the Mongols ripping through Russia in the 20-30 years before Baghdad.

I love comparative history but there's really nothing to suggest that all years are equal and that the clock runs at the same rate. (Also I hope that 1000 year figure is your approximation, because by 1100 European intellectual and cultural life were rocking -- the "dark ages" is mostly a myth and what there was of it really only lasted about 300 years.)

One of the Muslims' problems is around 1300 or so (my approximation) they had a full scale conservative reaction against the liberalizing effects of their intellectual elite and their governing structures basically disappeared down the rabbit hole of fundamentalism. The Christian Orthodox world had a similar problem -- haven't heard a lot from the Greeks lately. In the Catholic and later the Protestant world there was a rough balance between the power of the church and the power of the state, and as each elbowed around the other it created enough space in the middle for personal liberties and liberalism to grow. That doesn't happen in cultures where the church and state are one.

The other problem is they are being inundated with a wealthy, secular, urban cultural tsunami that threatens their poor, religious, rural traditions. Every time that happens you get nutbars. To the extent the nutbars have a huge impoverished population to feed off, they get stronger. Add foreign invaders and it's really no wonder. They're playing "Red Dawn."

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Nah, you're just going around rounding up the usual suspects.

Which yes, is objectively far better than shooting them on sight, but still wrong nonetheless.

It's not that I disagree with your goals (a secure border), I disagree with your methods (passing Unconstitutional laws and trying to enforce them).

Actually we aren't, as the law is on hold and all, but I won't get back into that discussion. Arizona is just unfortunate that it is suffering from the utter incompetence of our federal government more directly than most states. I'd rather we not pass these laws, but when you have a fundamental breakdown in the federal government's ability to meet its most basic responsibilities to its citizens, extraordinary measures are necessary. Of course this isn't really extraordinary, as having local law enforcement see if people are breaking another law when they pull someone over for possibly breaking a first law would be common sense if we didn't live in a society where things are viewed so distortedly. One of the defining characteristics of a failed nation state is its inability to control its borders.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Difference is, us Arizonans aren't going out and killing illegals and drug runners when they peeve us.

But it is a pretty good idea...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

But it is a pretty good idea...

The drug runners would be a tempting target, although they tend to be armed to the teeth, so it'd be a risky adventure unless someone had an major arsenel of weaponry, which I, and no one I know, has. The run-of-the-mill illegals, naw. They may cause some problems, but, other than some felons who come across the border, the rest, while breaking the law, they aren't looking for trouble and don't deserve something like that. Of course part of the problem is the drug cartels control the flow of run-of-the-mill illegals coming across now, in some cases forcing them to bring drugs into the states, so it's a lot more intertwined than one would like. I'd be fine if the military came in and blew the folks that are clearly with the drug cartels to smitherines, especially where they've gained effective control over sovereign U.S. territory.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

The drug runners would be a tempting target, although they tend to be armed to the teeth, so it'd be a risky adventure unless someone had an major arsenel of weaponry, which I, and no one I know, has. The run-of-the-mill illegals, naw. They may cause some problems, but, other than some felons who come across the border, the rest, while breaking the law, they aren't looking for trouble and don't deserve something like that. Of course part of the problem is the drug cartels control the flow of run-of-the-mill illegals coming across now, in some cases forcing them to bring drugs into the states, so it's a lot more intertwined than one would like. I'd be fine if the military came in and blew the folks that are clearly with the drug cartels to smitherines, especially where they've gained effective control over sovereign U.S. territory.

The way to take them out is with a high powered rifle. Take them out from 3000' and they won't even know where you're shooting from. (and yes, I'm referring to the drug cartels, I'm not suggesting shooting run of the mill illegals)

 

[Old Pio]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

The way to take them out is with a high powered rifle. Take them out from 3000' and they won't even know where you're shooting from. (and yes, I'm referring to the drug cartels, I'm not suggesting shooting run of the mill illegals)

I've often thought that cartel leaders should run the risk of being taken out by special ops guys. They can do some amazing things. A week or two ago there were reviews of a new book about British snipers, one of whom got two Taliban with one shot. BTW, they call that a "Quigley," from the Tom Selleck movie. I chuckled for a week.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

I've often thought that cartel leaders should run the risk of being taken out by special ops guys. They can do some amazing things. A week or two ago there were reviews of a new book about British snipers, one of whom got two Taliban with one shot. BTW, they call that a "Quigley," from the Tom Selleck movie. I chuckled for a week.

have you read "Lone Survivor"?

amazing book about special ops in afghanistan.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

have you read "Lone Survivor"?

amazing book about special ops in afghanistan.

I'll check it out. A Quigley, lol.

 

[Patman]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

You know... I was thinking about Afghanistan and Islam on the way home... in order to be a taliban and thrive in that environment... you have to believe that somewhere over the next hill is a person who you have never met who either a) doesn't worship God as you see him OR b) must be supervised to make sure he/she doesn't commit the long list of sins.... all this knowing that the next town or hill is a long time and resources away. In some ways you have to admire the dedication.... but at the same time you have to recognize the level of depraved insanity involved. Some guy kills a man or woman because of something done half a world away to a piece of paper... a man he will never see... speaking a language he will never know... etc... I could go on for awhile.

Point blank... somebody far away burned a book and this is so completely objectional that it rises to cause murder. Seems to be a definition of insanity to me.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

You know... I was thinking about Afghanistan and Islam on the way home... in order to be a taliban and thrive in that environment... you have to believe that somewhere over the next hill is a person who you have never met who either a) doesn't worship God as you see him OR b) must be supervised to make sure he/she doesn't commit the long list of sins.... all this knowing that the next town or hill is a long time and resources away. In some ways you have to admire the dedication.... but at the same time you have to recognize the level of depraved insanity involved. Some guy kills a man or woman because of something done half a world away to a piece of paper... a man he will never see... speaking a language he will never know... etc... I could go on for awhile.

Point blank... somebody far away burned a book and this is so completely objectional that it rises to cause murder. Seems to be a definition of insanity to me.

"We all go a little mad sometimes."

Norman Bates

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Point blank... somebody far away burned a book and this is so completely objectional that it rises to cause murder. Seems to be a definition of insanity to me.

Not a single Muslim I know (both from here and the myriad I met while working in the ME) would agree with the extremism set forth by those that insist on killing those that don't agree. While clearly the majority of extremists in the West do not incite the violence in any way measurable to those of the East, the general populace itself is not vastly different. While I fully support all the objections raised against the Muslim aggressors, I feel disdain from the knee-jerk reactionaries that insist this the norm.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Not a single Muslim I know (both from here and the myriad I met while working in the ME) would agree with the extremism set forth by those that insist on killing those that don't agree. While clearly the majority of extremists in the West do not incite the violence in any way measurable to those of the East, the general populace itself is not vastly different. While I fully support all the objections raised against the Muslim aggressors, I feel disdain from the knee-jerk reactionaries that insist this the norm.

Disdain away. Nobody on this thread has hinted at being a "knee jerk reactionary," any more than you've hinted at being knee jerk politically correct.. No one here has suggested that criticism of Muslim extremists extends to criticism of all Muslims. However it was inevitable that someone would respond to arguments not made with boilerplate rhetoric. I also think your premise that they're not as bad here as they are over there kinda misses the reality of "Dr." Hassan and Al Awlaki and the whole menagerie of native born jihadists. What you're arguing is bat chit crazy here isn't as bad or as prevalent as bat chit crazy there. Possibly true. But small comfort.

 

[busterman62]

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

What you're arguing is bat chit crazy here isn't as bad or as prevalent as bat chit crazy there. Possibly true. But small comfort.

"Long hair, short hair, what the hell's the difference once the head's blowed off?"
- Farmer Yasser