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No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
- Thread starter Old Pio
- Start date
bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
**** Lindsay Graham. War-time censorship is for use in time of actual war. He going to follow that up with any discussion of legalizing pot as giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the "War on Drugs," too?
If he got something like that past a US Supreme Court that allows flag burning, it's time to leave.
**** Lindsay Graham. War-time censorship is for use in time of actual war. He going to follow that up with any discussion of legalizing pot as giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the "War on Drugs," too?
If he got something like that past a US Supreme Court that allows flag burning, it's time to leave.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
Why Not? What makes their values and their culture less valid or correct then our culture and values? Just because you and I don't agree with them, does not make them wrong.
Why can't the two societies co-exist? Why can't they have their society and their culture over their and we have our culture and society over here?
Our society is bassed on the ideals of freedom of religion and freedom of speech. This requires the you tolerate different views and ideas, not that you have to agree with them nor support them.
The pastor has as much of a right to burn the Quoran as a Muslum has the right to protest and be upset over that act, but the murder of innocent people is never an acceptible form of protest. Never.
I don't believe that understanding is some sort of panacea and will result in everlasting peace. I simply recognize that just because someone chooses a different lifestyle and beliefs I am not in some way morally superior to them.
Death is a very tragic event, and in this case the death of 20 innocent persons is very much an over-reaction to what this pastor did. While I recognize that the pastor did not actually kill the person and he may not be legally responsible for those deaths, personally I hold him morally accountable for them.
Why Not? What makes their values and their culture less valid or correct then our culture and values? Just because you and I don't agree with them, does not make them wrong.
Why can't the two societies co-exist? Why can't they have their society and their culture over their and we have our culture and society over here?
Our society is bassed on the ideals of freedom of religion and freedom of speech. This requires the you tolerate different views and ideas, not that you have to agree with them nor support them.
The pastor has as much of a right to burn the Quoran as a Muslum has the right to protest and be upset over that act, but the murder of innocent people is never an acceptible form of protest. Never.
I don't believe that understanding is some sort of panacea and will result in everlasting peace. I simply recognize that just because someone chooses a different lifestyle and beliefs I am not in some way morally superior to them.
Death is a very tragic event, and in this case the death of 20 innocent persons is very much an over-reaction to what this pastor did. While I recognize that the pastor did not actually kill the person and he may not be legally responsible for those deaths, personally I hold him morally accountable for them.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
You had me until you said the pastor is morally accountable for the deaths. I think it's ridiculous to think that way.
You had me until you said the pastor is morally accountable for the deaths. I think it's ridiculous to think that way.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
This is mindless savagery that would make Reinhard Heydrich jealous. There have evidently been two suicide bombings involved in these "protests" (Protests? Is that what we're talking about here, protests?). Yup, any time somebody insults my religion, I reach for my explosive vest.
We're talking about people who beat a 14-year old rape victim to death, who publicly execute gay teenagers, who stone adulterers to death, who behead victims and videotape their handiwork, who riot, torture, and murder at the drop of a hat "in the name of their religion." And because of our instincts not to "judge" others or their religions, we equivocate, we temporize, we explain away this behavior. Now we're "blaming" this wanna be Fred Phelps. As repulsive as he and his "church" are, he is not responsible for the deaths of 20 innocent people.
Jeff Dunham's got these p****s about right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
This is mindless savagery that would make Reinhard Heydrich jealous. There have evidently been two suicide bombings involved in these "protests" (Protests? Is that what we're talking about here, protests?). Yup, any time somebody insults my religion, I reach for my explosive vest.
We're talking about people who beat a 14-year old rape victim to death, who publicly execute gay teenagers, who stone adulterers to death, who behead victims and videotape their handiwork, who riot, torture, and murder at the drop of a hat "in the name of their religion." And because of our instincts not to "judge" others or their religions, we equivocate, we temporize, we explain away this behavior. Now we're "blaming" this wanna be Fred Phelps. As repulsive as he and his "church" are, he is not responsible for the deaths of 20 innocent people.
Jeff Dunham's got these p****s about right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
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Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
this should remind us that our first amendment rights only last as long as somebody who would take it down because they fear what others would do. What a load of crap... a congressional investigation over whether or not a man has a right to burn paper?!?!?! Really?!?!?! Are these the same people who are passively OK with that intelligence dump we know as Wikileaks? I know Lindsay isn't one of those, but i'm sure quite a few are. Pastor Jones may be a scumbag who is trying to get a new car for his ministry out of this, but really? A congressional investigation? Of what? The mixture he used as an accelerant?
Almington, I'll take your post down point by point when I'm sober and I find time to get around to it.
this should remind us that our first amendment rights only last as long as somebody who would take it down because they fear what others would do. What a load of crap... a congressional investigation over whether or not a man has a right to burn paper?!?!?! Really?!?!?! Are these the same people who are passively OK with that intelligence dump we know as Wikileaks? I know Lindsay isn't one of those, but i'm sure quite a few are. Pastor Jones may be a scumbag who is trying to get a new car for his ministry out of this, but really? A congressional investigation? Of what? The mixture he used as an accelerant?
Almington, I'll take your post down point by point when I'm sober and I find time to get around to it.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
If I have to be culturally tolerant of those who slice the noses off of women because they might have been seen by those who are not their immediate family... oh, no, oh, hell no.
If I have to be culturally tolerant of those who slice the noses off of women because they might have been seen by those who are not their immediate family... oh, no, oh, hell no.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
I said that I hold him morally responsible, speaking only for myself.
There are aspects of Islam that I find morally unacceptable, Old Pio has pointed many of them out. I don't know what the right answer is, I don't know how you reconcile our culture and accepted behavior with their culture. Particularly, when one side is extremely rigid (or has an extreme minority) that is unable/unwilling to compromise. What we cannot do is compromise the aspects of our culture that allow it to function the way it is and the freedom of speech is a bedrock tenant that should not be limited to satisfy some external pressure.
I said that I hold him morally responsible, speaking only for myself.
There are aspects of Islam that I find morally unacceptable, Old Pio has pointed many of them out. I don't know what the right answer is, I don't know how you reconcile our culture and accepted behavior with their culture. Particularly, when one side is extremely rigid (or has an extreme minority) that is unable/unwilling to compromise. What we cannot do is compromise the aspects of our culture that allow it to function the way it is and the freedom of speech is a bedrock tenant that should not be limited to satisfy some external pressure.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
I'm with the media, which (surprisingly) wasn't all over this. There's no news here. Islamic radicals killing innocent people for no good reason? Check. Gainesville pastor a loathsome attention whore? Check.
These things didn't just become true last month.
I'm with the media, which (surprisingly) wasn't all over this. There's no news here. Islamic radicals killing innocent people for no good reason? Check. Gainesville pastor a loathsome attention whore? Check.
These things didn't just become true last month.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
I know what you said. I stand by my statement. I, too, find aspects of Islam that I find unacceptable. I simply pointed out that I agreed with you, until you held the pastor morally accountable. That part I cannot agree with.
I know what you said. I stand by my statement. I, too, find aspects of Islam that I find unacceptable. I simply pointed out that I agreed with you, until you held the pastor morally accountable. That part I cannot agree with.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
True. But here, unlike Freddy Phelps' demonstrations, innocent people are dying and have died and will die. That's what separates bat chit Muslims from everybody else. Bat chit Muslims show up one day at Fort Hood and murder 13 GI's. Bat Chit Muslims put bombs in their U trou. Bat chit Muslims plant bombs in Times' Square. And on and on and on.
This is where media, particularly local media, are letting us down: no context, no perspective. Local TV news especially, markets itself as being "on your side," featuring clips of ambush interviews with local officials or businessmen running away from blow dried morons asking them the tough questions: "Did you steal the paper clips?" Almost anything really important to the audience is jettisoned. Too much work. Too hard a story to tell. Too hard to find sources.
Here's one you've seen multiple times (and, hopefully had nothing to do with professionally). White cop shoots and kills young black suspect after suspect produces a weapon. TV shows up and the local gentry are full of helpful observatiions: "That boy wasn't doing nothing." "I saw the whole thing, and that cop just killed him. He didn't have no gun." Etc. Local TV puts that unverified crapola on the air. Subsequently, none of these "eyewitnesses" testify before the grand jury or the citizen review board, where their statements would be under oath. None of the enterprising (and I'm not using that term in the journalistic sense) reporters think to ask any probing questions about our "witnesses" in order to establish even entry level credibility. Nope, they just put those inflamatory (and almost certainly untrue) statements on the air. No context. No perspective. "We did a little checking, and the "witness" who claims the cop gunned down an unarmed, innocent person is a member of the Bloods, a two time loser, convicted of felony mopery, who wasn't even there." Nope. Just shove his ugly stupid lying face into everybody's living room.
When it comes to Muslim extremism, our enterprising reporters run to their local Muslim "source." A guy who's always available to answer questions (the most important credential). Maybe he's a cleric, maybe he's a professor at the local JC, maybe he's just a Muslim with an axe to grind. Under almost any circumstances, what he has to offer is, at a minimum, worthless. He has no context, no perspective (other than his own) and may have a hidden agenda about which our talking hairdos have zero knowledge and understanding. But by golly we've got a local dude on our air commenting on the latest bat chit Muslim outrage somewhere in the world. At best, this "reporting" doesn't inform at all. At worst, this "reporting" puts people's lives needlessly at risk by keeping them ignorant of the nature and extent of serious threats.
True. But here, unlike Freddy Phelps' demonstrations, innocent people are dying and have died and will die. That's what separates bat chit Muslims from everybody else. Bat chit Muslims show up one day at Fort Hood and murder 13 GI's. Bat Chit Muslims put bombs in their U trou. Bat chit Muslims plant bombs in Times' Square. And on and on and on.
This is where media, particularly local media, are letting us down: no context, no perspective. Local TV news especially, markets itself as being "on your side," featuring clips of ambush interviews with local officials or businessmen running away from blow dried morons asking them the tough questions: "Did you steal the paper clips?" Almost anything really important to the audience is jettisoned. Too much work. Too hard a story to tell. Too hard to find sources.
Here's one you've seen multiple times (and, hopefully had nothing to do with professionally). White cop shoots and kills young black suspect after suspect produces a weapon. TV shows up and the local gentry are full of helpful observatiions: "That boy wasn't doing nothing." "I saw the whole thing, and that cop just killed him. He didn't have no gun." Etc. Local TV puts that unverified crapola on the air. Subsequently, none of these "eyewitnesses" testify before the grand jury or the citizen review board, where their statements would be under oath. None of the enterprising (and I'm not using that term in the journalistic sense) reporters think to ask any probing questions about our "witnesses" in order to establish even entry level credibility. Nope, they just put those inflamatory (and almost certainly untrue) statements on the air. No context. No perspective. "We did a little checking, and the "witness" who claims the cop gunned down an unarmed, innocent person is a member of the Bloods, a two time loser, convicted of felony mopery, who wasn't even there." Nope. Just shove his ugly stupid lying face into everybody's living room.
When it comes to Muslim extremism, our enterprising reporters run to their local Muslim "source." A guy who's always available to answer questions (the most important credential). Maybe he's a cleric, maybe he's a professor at the local JC, maybe he's just a Muslim with an axe to grind. Under almost any circumstances, what he has to offer is, at a minimum, worthless. He has no context, no perspective (other than his own) and may have a hidden agenda about which our talking hairdos have zero knowledge and understanding. But by golly we've got a local dude on our air commenting on the latest bat chit Muslim outrage somewhere in the world. At best, this "reporting" doesn't inform at all. At worst, this "reporting" puts people's lives needlessly at risk by keeping them ignorant of the nature and extent of serious threats.
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
From my perspective, the lack of context goes even deeper.
I saw a clip of Gen. Petraeus being interviewed about the incident -- condemning the burning. The solemn newscaster provided the following context: despite a decade of good work, incidents like this just go to show how precarious our progress is in winning hearts and minds.
What utter horse****. If an incident like this can undo years of work, then the work isn't working. My immediate thought when hearing of this incident was that maybe it would help people see that much of our contemporary ideas about counterinsurgency are folly. That seems like a much better response than attacking individual freedom. But forget not getting traction, that take isn't even being mentioned. It doesn't support anyone's favorite narrative, so you can forget about MSNBC and Fox. And CNN has apparently decided that if thinking risks demonstrating bias, it's better simply to avoid thinking. Sigh.
/digression
From my perspective, the lack of context goes even deeper.
I saw a clip of Gen. Petraeus being interviewed about the incident -- condemning the burning. The solemn newscaster provided the following context: despite a decade of good work, incidents like this just go to show how precarious our progress is in winning hearts and minds.
What utter horse****. If an incident like this can undo years of work, then the work isn't working. My immediate thought when hearing of this incident was that maybe it would help people see that much of our contemporary ideas about counterinsurgency are folly. That seems like a much better response than attacking individual freedom. But forget not getting traction, that take isn't even being mentioned. It doesn't support anyone's favorite narrative, so you can forget about MSNBC and Fox. And CNN has apparently decided that if thinking risks demonstrating bias, it's better simply to avoid thinking. Sigh.
/digression
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
The reporting from Japan has been abominable. Yes, a 40 year old reactor complex was seriously damaged by one of the worst earthquakes in recorded history followed by a massive tsunami. But the reporting has become what some are calling "disaster porn." The permanent anti-nuclear crowd is johnny on the spot, providing their "I told you so's," and dark predictions. In the last decade, more people have died in wind farms than have died in nuclear plants. The reporting has dealt almost totally with worst case scenarios.
Meanwhile, the enormous tragedy of the tsunami and the Japanese reaction to it has been grossly underreported. No looting. No rioting. No old ladies knocked over for their rations. Grocery store chains LOWERED their prices. I spent many years in Houston. And Texas has a law prohibiting gouging on hurricane supplies. No such law in Japan. It's not needed. Vending machine owners giving away beverages. The Yakuza providing relief supplies and help for victims. I read a story about a guy in a mom and pop grocery store using a generator to run the light and his cash register. Customers were lined up outside the store waiting to pay for their purchases. When the generator gave out, and the cash register became inoperable, these folks brought those items back into the store and put them back on the shelves. When Katrina hit NO there were several incidents of NOPD officers abandoning their city and heading to other towns to apply for jobs. I'd bet a year's pay that hasn't been going on in Japan. Long stretches of road damaged by the disaster have already been repaired. We're about to observe the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and all lower Manhattan has to show for it is a hole in the ground. Anybody want to bet me that it won't take anything like ten years to repair the much more extensive damage in Japan? Why not report on more of THAT?
Remember after Katrina, day after day of reporting of "stacks of bodies" in the Superdome and later the convention center? We've run out of body bags! Randall Robinson of Trans Africa wrote a Huff Po article in which he talked about cannibalism in the 9th ward. What? A couple of days without boudin and the brothers are eating Granny? Sheppard Smith ("lordie, am I pretty") was at the head of the list, spewing disaster porn every moment he was on the air. Listen, Katrina WAS awful, but there weren't stacks of bodies in the dome, nor roaving gangs of killers, nor a shortage of body bags. Sadly, some elderly people, in poor health, affected by the heat and stress and lack of food and water, expired. And, because normal services were interrupted, their bodies stayed outside far too long. Awful. Terrible. Sad. But NOT "we've run out of body bags."
Perspective. Context.
The reporting from Japan has been abominable. Yes, a 40 year old reactor complex was seriously damaged by one of the worst earthquakes in recorded history followed by a massive tsunami. But the reporting has become what some are calling "disaster porn." The permanent anti-nuclear crowd is johnny on the spot, providing their "I told you so's," and dark predictions. In the last decade, more people have died in wind farms than have died in nuclear plants. The reporting has dealt almost totally with worst case scenarios.
Meanwhile, the enormous tragedy of the tsunami and the Japanese reaction to it has been grossly underreported. No looting. No rioting. No old ladies knocked over for their rations. Grocery store chains LOWERED their prices. I spent many years in Houston. And Texas has a law prohibiting gouging on hurricane supplies. No such law in Japan. It's not needed. Vending machine owners giving away beverages. The Yakuza providing relief supplies and help for victims. I read a story about a guy in a mom and pop grocery store using a generator to run the light and his cash register. Customers were lined up outside the store waiting to pay for their purchases. When the generator gave out, and the cash register became inoperable, these folks brought those items back into the store and put them back on the shelves. When Katrina hit NO there were several incidents of NOPD officers abandoning their city and heading to other towns to apply for jobs. I'd bet a year's pay that hasn't been going on in Japan. Long stretches of road damaged by the disaster have already been repaired. We're about to observe the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and all lower Manhattan has to show for it is a hole in the ground. Anybody want to bet me that it won't take anything like ten years to repair the much more extensive damage in Japan? Why not report on more of THAT?
Remember after Katrina, day after day of reporting of "stacks of bodies" in the Superdome and later the convention center? We've run out of body bags! Randall Robinson of Trans Africa wrote a Huff Po article in which he talked about cannibalism in the 9th ward. What? A couple of days without boudin and the brothers are eating Granny? Sheppard Smith ("lordie, am I pretty") was at the head of the list, spewing disaster porn every moment he was on the air. Listen, Katrina WAS awful, but there weren't stacks of bodies in the dome, nor roaving gangs of killers, nor a shortage of body bags. Sadly, some elderly people, in poor health, affected by the heat and stress and lack of food and water, expired. And, because normal services were interrupted, their bodies stayed outside far too long. Awful. Terrible. Sad. But NOT "we've run out of body bags."
Perspective. Context.
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WeWantMore
New member
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
I'm curious how far that goes. Say today someone does something to offend me or my religion, and I go out and kill a bunch of people. Is the person who offended me morally responsible in your eyes as well?
I'm curious how far that goes. Say today someone does something to offend me or my religion, and I go out and kill a bunch of people. Is the person who offended me morally responsible in your eyes as well?
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
We live in a world where we know elements of Muslim society will react like this to the slightest provocation (Danish cartoonist, etc.), and that other large chunks of the Muslim world will endorse such behavior or at least be ambivalent. It's happened time and again. So, while he was free to do what he did, the pastor wasn't conducting himself in a very Christian way and was not doing his country or the world any favors by throwing a match on what is a very well known powder keg. Surprise, it explodes. It's like when you've got a relative who is totally off-the-wall on some issue and is known to become violent with those who disagree with them on the issue. You're free to provoke that relative by pushing that issue, but you know what you'll get when you do, and it's not fun. So, a bit of discretion might be in order. I'm thinking the pastor wasn't giving much thought to the Great Commission or other Christian teachings when he was burning his Quran. So bad on him, no two ways about it.
Of course on the Afghans' side of things, there is simply no excuse for their conduct. Afghanistan has a long history of being extremely intolerant toward anyone who they don't agree with. But, they are what they are, and they react like they react, so we have to try to make the best of it, living in a world with some very difficult neighbors. Thankfully at least they're halfway around the world. If it weren't for the terrorist problem that can fester there, I'd say pull the troops today. Or maybe we do that anyway and just put them on notice that any consorting with terrorists will receive a nice hail of missiles. Not a great solution either, but, really there is no great solution to this quagmire. There are simply people in this world who aren't reasonable and don't conduct themselves decently.
We live in a world where we know elements of Muslim society will react like this to the slightest provocation (Danish cartoonist, etc.), and that other large chunks of the Muslim world will endorse such behavior or at least be ambivalent. It's happened time and again. So, while he was free to do what he did, the pastor wasn't conducting himself in a very Christian way and was not doing his country or the world any favors by throwing a match on what is a very well known powder keg. Surprise, it explodes. It's like when you've got a relative who is totally off-the-wall on some issue and is known to become violent with those who disagree with them on the issue. You're free to provoke that relative by pushing that issue, but you know what you'll get when you do, and it's not fun. So, a bit of discretion might be in order. I'm thinking the pastor wasn't giving much thought to the Great Commission or other Christian teachings when he was burning his Quran. So bad on him, no two ways about it.
Of course on the Afghans' side of things, there is simply no excuse for their conduct. Afghanistan has a long history of being extremely intolerant toward anyone who they don't agree with. But, they are what they are, and they react like they react, so we have to try to make the best of it, living in a world with some very difficult neighbors. Thankfully at least they're halfway around the world. If it weren't for the terrorist problem that can fester there, I'd say pull the troops today. Or maybe we do that anyway and just put them on notice that any consorting with terrorists will receive a nice hail of missiles. Not a great solution either, but, really there is no great solution to this quagmire. There are simply people in this world who aren't reasonable and don't conduct themselves decently.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
People are crazy. Desperate people are violent. Fundamentalist religious people are certain they're going to heaven. So desperate fundamentalist people are crazy, violent, and certain they're going to heaven.
That makes them unpleasant to be around.
People are crazy. Desperate people are violent. Fundamentalist religious people are certain they're going to heaven. So desperate fundamentalist people are crazy, violent, and certain they're going to heaven.
That makes them unpleasant to be around.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
Not sure how you make the connection that crazy and desperate necessarily get tied to fundamentalist (however that's defined). At least from what you say in this post. Lots of crazy and desperate people out there that are fundamentalist of some sort or not fundamentalist at all.
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!
I have to check out when the film references start, b/c I su-- at pop culture. I do collect quotations, though (as epigraphs for books that I'll never write), and I think I've got one for Kepler's point.
The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.
-James A. Baldwin
I used to believe that was right. But not all radicals are in a rush to martyr themselves in order to escape their desperate circumstances. Some have options in life. So there really is something more sinister going on.
I accepted no money from Old Pio before making this post.
I have to check out when the film references start, b/c I su-- at pop culture. I do collect quotations, though (as epigraphs for books that I'll never write), and I think I've got one for Kepler's point.
The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.
-James A. Baldwin
I used to believe that was right. But not all radicals are in a rush to martyr themselves in order to escape their desperate circumstances. Some have options in life. So there really is something more sinister going on.
I accepted no money from Old Pio before making this post.