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No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

WeWantMore said:
I'm curious how far that goes. Say today someone does something to offend me or my religion, and I go out and kill a bunch of people. Is the person who offended me morally responsible in your eyes as well?
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If the person did so with the direct intention of aggrivating and disrespecting you AND you had a distory of violent response to such disrespect, then yes I would.


Bob Gray basically hit how I feel about the whole event exactly right (and I can't remember the last time that I agreed with him about something), and did so in a much better way then I have been able.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
Not sure how you make the connection that crazy and desperate necessarily get tied to fundamentalist (however that's defined). At least from what you say in this post. Lots of crazy and desperate people out there that are fundamentalist of some sort or not fundamentalist at all.
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He didn't. He made three independant statements (which I'm converting to basic logic statements because I'm lazy):
If A then X.
If B then Y.
If C then Z.

He then said:
If ABC, then XYZ
XYZ = unpleasant.

He never said:
If AB, then C.
 
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

unofan said:
He didn't. He made three independant statements (which I'm converting to basic logic statements because I'm lazy):
If A then X.
If B then Y.
If C then Z.

He then said:
If ABC, then XYZ
XYZ = unpleasant.

He never said:
If AB, then C.
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Yah, he skipped that step. But ABC means he linked A and B and C.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
Yah, he skipped that step. But ABC means he linked A and B and C.
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For purposes of the people at issue in this thread, yes he did. But the thread title kind of assumes that already, doesn't it?

I don't think he was saying all fundamentalists are desperate. Some might not even people, either. :p
 
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

unofan said:
For purposes of the people at issue in this thread, yes he did. But the thread title kind of assumes that already, doesn't it?

I don't think he was saying all fundamentalists are desperate. Some might not even people, either. :p
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My, how intolerant of you to assume that being Muslim equals being crazy, desperate, violent, and fundamentalist. :p


Not sure what that last sentence of yours was intended to say. That Muslims aren't people?
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
My, how intolerant of you to assume that being Muslim equals being crazy, desperate, violent, and fundamentalist. :p

Not sure what that last sentence of yours was intended to say. That Muslims aren't people?
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It was snark. You're upset about him potentially linking A, B, and C - in this case, Fundamentalism, desparation and personhood - in all cases. I know your primary concern is with the link he made between fundamentalism and desparation, but I couldn't help making a jab about the logical possibility that there is no link between fundamentalism and personhood. Hence my snark, and yes, I'm a geek for thinking logic humor is funny. (and I own enough woot.com t-shirts to prove it)

Also, the thread title says "some Muslims" - my guess is the ones that go bat **** crazy over a relgious insult tend be those who are more fundamental in their adherence to said religion. The less fundamental ones are probably also the more likely to say, "whatever."
 
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

It seems that people get offended in different ways, and the degree to which they're willing to respond to offenses varies quite a bit as well.

I'm not burning anyone's holy book, just to be safe. The concept of freedom of speech is an American notion, not global. We can all opine about what we'd like to see, or what we think is right, but trying to impress these notions on others over time seems to have disastrous outcomes. I'm not justifying killing people, I personally think it's very unfortunate and loathsome, but this seems to be reality.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

unofan said:
It was snark. You're upset about him potentially linking A, B, and C - in this case, Fundamentalism, desparation and personhood - in all cases. I know your primary concern is with the link he made between fundamentalism and desparation, but I couldn't help making a jab about the logical possibility that there is no link between fundamentalism and personhood. Hence my snark, and yes, I'm a geek for thinking logic humor is funny. (and I own enough woot.com t-shirts to prove it)

Also, the thread title says "some Muslims" - my guess is the ones that go bat **** crazy over a relgious insult tend be those who are more fundamental in their adherence to said religion. The less fundamental ones are probably also the more likely to say, "whatever."
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I'm not upset. Kepler and I have a lot of good interchanges, even though we often see things differently. I was just pointing out that his post didn't logically link things, which I'm sure you can appreciate. He does tend to get a little loosey-goosey when he gets going on fundamentalism and such. When I have to deal with folks like Scooby, Foxton, Rover, etc., I can't think of when I've ever been upset with Kepler.

I'd agree that the fundamentalist Muslims are more likely to take offense.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

amherstblackbear said:
I'm with the media, which (surprisingly) wasn't all over this. There's no news here. Islamic radicals killing innocent people for no good reason? Check. Gainesville pastor a loathsome attention whore? Check.

These things didn't just become true last month.
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thank you, a plague on both their houses.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
Yah, he skipped that step. But ABC means he linked A and B and C.
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I didn't skip anything. I said if ABC then XYZ.

One difference between the moron Koran-burning preacher and the moron murdering Muslims in Afghanistan is the moron Koran-burning preacher isn't desperate (B). The salient difference is he isn't a murderer (Y). Though everybody wins if we parachute him into Kandahar. Him especially -- he'll get his eternal reward that much sooner.
 
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Kepler said:
I didn't skip anything. I said if ABC then XYZ.

One difference between the moron Koran-burning preacher and the moron murdering Muslims in Afghanistan is the moron Koran-burning preacher isn't desperate (B). The salient difference is he isn't a murderer (Y). Though everybody wins if we parachute him into Kandahar. Him especially -- he'll get his eternal reward that much sooner.
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Works for me.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Kepler said:
I didn't skip anything. I said if ABC then XYZ.

One difference between the moron Koran-burning preacher and the moron murdering Muslims in Afghanistan is the moron Koran-burning preacher isn't desperate (B). The salient difference is he isn't a murderer (Y). Though everybody wins if we parachute him into Kandahar. Him especially -- he'll get his eternal reward that much sooner.
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Except absent the "if."
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
Except absent the "if."
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I'm not following you, but I don't think we're disagreeing.

The other thing strong religious sentiment can be good at is the will to do The Right Thing even when it makes no sense pragmatically. Hopefully we will see some of that from all sides, here -- I'm sure it's happening all the time, but by definition it doesn't make headlines. It's incumbent on peaceful Muslims to be peaceful -- murders like these are just that, murders -- even if they happen in the midst of a riot when people have been reduced to animals, there was plenty of deliberate ideological framing and preparation that led to that riot. That's also easy for us to say, of course, since we're not on the sharp end of the stick in these countries. So it's also incumbent on peaceful Christians to not rationalize that when that stick gets jammed into innocents "war's a dirty business" or "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." One or two incidents like that undo a lot of that restraint from the portion of the local population that is just caught in the middle.
 
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Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Kepler said:
I'm not following you, but I don't think we're disagreeing.

The other thing strong religious sentiment can be good at is the will to do The Right Thing even when it makes no sense pragmatically. Hopefully we will see some of that from all sides, here -- I'm sure it's happening all the time, but by definition it doesn't make headlines. It's incumbent on peaceful Muslims to be peaceful -- murders like these are just that, murders -- even if they happen in the midst of a riot when people have been reduced to animals, there was plenty of deliberate ideological framing and preparation that led to that riot. That's easy for us to say, of course, since we're not on the sharp end of the stick in these countries. So it's also incumbent on peaceful Christians to not rationalize that when that stick gets jammed into innocents "war's a dirty business" or "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." One or two incidents like that undo a lot of that restraint from the portion of the local population that is just caught in the middle.
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All I meant is there was no "if" in your original comment.

Some places you can make an argument that things like this are out of the norm or isolated cases. Not Afghanistan, which has a long history of being virulently intolerant of non-Muslims or Muslims who aren't devout enough. That history goes back long before the U.S. had any involvment in the region. Yet another reason it's going to be virtually impossible for us to help get things running decently there and be able to step away without the Taliban or someone else bad taking over and reverting back.
 
Re: No Doubt About It: Some Muslims Are Bat Chit Crazy!

Bob Gray said:
All I meant is there was no "if" in your original comment.

Some places you can make an argument that things like this are out of the norm or isolated cases. Not Afghanistan, which has a long history of being virulently intolerant of non-Muslims or Muslims who aren't devout enough. That history goes back long before the U.S. had any involvement in the region. Yet another reason it's going to be virtually impossible for us to help get things running decently there and be able to step away without the Taliban or someone else bad taking over and reverting back.
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The article I linked to about the murder of the NATO personnel touches on this. In traditional Muslim society blasphemy gets punished with the death penalty. So part of this is a genuine cultural misunderstanding -- we see a mind-boggling asymmetry between a bozo exercising his free speech rights in the stupidest way possible and a murderous rampage resulting in death. They (the religious fanatics) don't see that as a glaring overreaction. But, even granting that, the murder of innocent people can never be justified: I don't care how sacred your holy hand grenade is, you don't get to kill your innocent neighbor over its mishandling. Hence the suggestion that Jones be repatriated to Kabul to test the courage of his convictions.

The West took a long time to get over the impregnation of civil codes with religious fundamentalist baggage -- that is the West's greatest political achievement and the wellspring of all our protections of civil liberties. Even we have our tiny, albeit frighteningly gun-crazy, fringe that is utterly convinced it will put us all in the lake of fire.

In the Muslim world, the lake of fire types seem to be in the majority and/or in charge in a lot of places, and they get to write and enforce the laws. And then there are cynical exploiters who likely don't believe a word of it themselves but know how to work the crowd for their personal gain -- the Glenn Becks of Kabul. Add poverty, terrain impervious to government control, strong clans that go back a thousand years, zero education, and an assault rifle in every pot, and you get Alabama on steroids.
 
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