New Poll Predictions for 11/30

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

I think you're downgrading Manhattanville and Elmira a bit here Remy.

Morrisville beat Elmira, Elmira beat Oswego, and Oswego beat Plattsburgh. See how that logic works? I believe it's called the transitive property? Morrisville > Plattsburgh.

Do I believe that? Not even close.

However, back to my initial point. There is no doubt the ECAC West is down so far this year but i wouldn't completely write off Hobart, Neumann, and Utica yet. I could see one of them having a chance at being ranked by season's end if they get the ship righted.

I think Manhattanville and Elmira are all but locks to still be ranked unless they really hit a slide. Elmira has been playing better hockey as of late and we'll see just how far they've come this weekend when they travel to Utica and Manhattanville.

Manhattanville looked mighty impressive until their slip-up this past weekend. Let's see how they rebound this weekend.

Elmira still gets to meet Plattsburgh in January at the Thunderdomes. That'll be another measuring stick weekend as well as the Pathfinder Bank Classic with another showdown rubber match game with Oswego.

But all we want to do is look at scores....and all the ties and WINS Cortland, Buff State, Geneseo, Potsdam, Oswego and Morrisville have over the power houses of the ECAC West. I mean Elmira just barely snuck by Fredonia, a team Plattsburgh blasted by 8 in their own barn.....just playing Devils advocate here D....thanks for biting and proving my point....You can't always go by scores to see how good teams are....

 

[93GreatLaker]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Second, once again all YOU have to support your claim is a score, that's it. Teams are not based JUST on a score, and you keep saying 3 as if Oswego dominated Plattsburgh all game long......And again I say....

Not true. I have the score, plus the better record, plus a tougher schedule so far this year as evidenced by the records of both teams opponents. What do you have to support your asserstion besides "I think they are better"?

And the Morrisville argument in regards to Elmira is apples and oranges. I agree that just because a team wins a game it does not necessarily mean they are better. However, if you couple that with they won the game, have a better record against better opponents (which Oswego has over Plattsburgh, Morrisville does not have that over Elmira) and you have a claim that it is not unreasonable to think one team is better than the other.

 

[Ozz]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

But all we want to do is look at scores....and all the ties and WINS Cortland, Buff State, Geneseo, Potsdam, Oswego and Morrisville have over the power houses of the ECAC West. I mean Elmira just barely snuck by Fredonia, a team Plattsburgh blasted by 8 in their own barn.....just playing Devils advocate here D....thanks for biting and proving my point....You can't always go by scores to see how good teams are....

You're right...you can't always go by score to see how good teams are. But just as you are biased to Platty, I (and many others on this board) are biased towards Oswego because we get to see the respective teams play on a regular basis. Since I haven't seen 95% of the DIII teams play, you do have to go on score a little bit. The final score, the SOGs, PP, PK, and the word of mouth (with a grain of salt) from the posters on this board all add up to how we perceive a team being good or bad on a whole, not just on a single night. If we saw Platty and Oswego play ten weekends in a row, we could make more of a generalization.

Now if you're talking about the NFL for example, we can acutally watch all the teams play and rely less on the score or boxscore to determine how good a team is.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Now if you're talking about the NFL for example, we can acutally watch all the teams play and rely less on the score or boxscore to determine how good a team is.

But in the NFL, every team at least has common opponents with every other team, and plays every other team at least twice every 8 years. Thus, their rankings are based purely on wins/losses. The comparison is moot.

 

[Ozz]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

But in the NFL, every team at least has common opponents with every other team, and plays every other team at least twice every 8 years. Thus, their rankings are based purely on wins/losses. The comparison is moot.

I'm not talking about ranking or standings though. I'm simply talking about an individual's perception of how good a team is. The comparison is un-moot.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

....thanks for biting and proving my point....You can't always go by scores to see how good teams are....

Well I'll be _______ !!
Remy.............this is exactly what the Adrian fans have been saying about the Bulldogs for the past two years.Good teams can be very good and who they play is out of their control. I'm impressed with this awakening pal !

.................back then your shoe was certainly on the other foot on that score (pardon the pun) .......now that shoe (complete with foot) appears to fit very well ...>>>>in mouth......

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

You're right...you can't always go by score to see how good teams are. But just as you are biased to Platty, I (and many others on this board) are biased towards Oswego because we get to see the respective teams play on a regular basis. Since I haven't seen 95% of the DIII teams play, you do have to go on score a little bit.

I agree I'm not sure either team is "the best" team ....

The final score, the SOGs, PP, PK, and the word of mouth (with a grain of salt) from the posters on this board all add up to how we perceive a team being good or bad on a whole, not just on a single night. If we saw Platty and Oswego play ten weekends in a row, we could make more of a generalization.

Exactly my point. A score is one piece of it and all some of these people want to do is go by the score and that's it. Even you yourself said it looked as if Plattsburgh was a DI team playing a DIII team. Obviously the Plattsburgh offense had to be pretty good if they put up 34 shots on Oswego (which is the 2nd most shots allowed) and time of possession was heavily in Plattsburgh's favor, and while the defense was criticized for a couple of the goals, holding Oswego to just 14 shots is impressive. It's the ONLY time this year Oswego has been held to under 27 shots. If they were to play 10 weekends in a row, I don't think a team is going to score 4 goals on 13 shots the majority (if ever again) on this team....10 games, 20 games whatever.

The whole point was in regards to all the Laker Whining that just because you beat a team, you shouldn't be considered equal to a team.

And the Morrisville argument in regards to Elmira is apples and oranges. I agree that just because a team wins a game it does not necessarily mean they are better. However, if you couple that with they won the game, have a better record against better opponents (which Oswego has over Plattsburgh, Morrisville does not have that over Elmira) and you have a claim that it is not unreasonable to think one team is better than the other.

A "better record" is a direct reflection on the same thing, the score...so you still only have one. The only have a better record because of "the score" of the Plattsburgh game?? What else do you have..I only see one thing...

How is it apples and oranges...like I said at that time would you have lobbied to keep Elmira behind Morrisville? Because obviously Elmira didn't "score" enough so they are not as good as Elmira.

Once again you are going back to just scores....and not what actually happened during the game on the ice....

And I've watched Elmira, Middlebury, and Norwich twice now and after watching it comes down to this Middlebury/Norwich > Elmira. These are a pair of teams that just beat the former #3 team in the Nation by a combined 16-4. NOT JUST ON THE SCOREBOARD BUT ON THE RINK. Stout didn't know what hit them against Norwich, ask them. Whats Elmira got? A 4-3 win over Fredonia, a 1-2 Loss to Morrisville, a 5-2 combined weekend sweep over a mediocre Hobart team that just got spanked 5-2 (because we all know a 3 goal win is a spank) from a team that isn't even in the SUNYAC playoffs right now?

Utica?? A one game above .500 team who just got spanked (another 3 goal loss) to Potsdam....who is another .500 team. What does Utica have? A 1-0 win over power house Lebanon Valley? They do have a smackdown 4 goal win over last years champ this years chump Neumann...

Yea looks like Oswego wins that category....I'll take Norwich and Middlebury over those two teams ANY day.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Well I'll be _______ !!
Remy.............this is exactly what the Adrian fans have been saying about the Bulldogs for the past two years.Good teams can be very good and who they play is out of their control. I'm impressed with this awakening pal !

.................back then your shoe was certainly on the other foot on that score (pardon the pun) .......now that shoe (complete with foot) appears to fit very well ...>>>>in mouth......

No my only complaint with Adrian (and mostly just a handful of posters) was just the same thing. Just because you beat teams 100-1 doesn't make you god. Its about WHO you are playing. I never disputed the fact Adrian was good, they had nothing to prove they were AS good or better to take away a bid from someone who has because there was no head to head. Had Adrian played SNC/UWS/Oswego/Plattsburgh/Middlebury/Norwich ect and lost by 3 goals but outplayed them and outshot them by 20, your **** right I would stick up and say Adrian was a better team then those teams listed..IF THEY PLAYED...its not on the other foot, its on the same foot. You can not say how good/not good a team is just because of a score, its how they play against top notch competition on a regular basis. Adrian never got the shot to do that the past few seasons. Manhatanville did this for a few season, they would only schedule the weak sisters of leagues, win big and expect to walk into the NCAA's. Lebanon Valley in the ECAC NE would put up crazy numbers (much like Adrian in the MCHA), but once they came to play an NCAA playoff team got smoked. They didn't "take" an at-large bid away from a more deserving team. If Adrian comes out and plays Oswego tough (even if they lose) and keeps it close (not on the scoreboard) I will gladly push for them for an at large bid if they win out and lose in their tourney.

If we were looking at strictly scores...are you telling me Adrian is only a 1 goal difference over last place in the SUNYAC Buff State? Buff State also only lost to St.Johns by 1, yet Adrian only beat St.Johns by 4....After the pasting Plattsburgh put of Buff State you would assume Adrian is in no league of Plattsburgh right? If you were going by scores only. Having seen Adrian play (albeit only once) I don't think they are even close to Buff State and would probably be #3 in the SUNYAC right now with 2 loses to Plattsburgh and Oswego probably by a combined 4-5 goals, but two pretty close games.

For what ever reason Adrian didn't get the chance to show how they could do against the best teams...now they are, and if they take advantage of it (doesn't mean win) they could still be the better team and lose, they will get the recognition they want. When Middlebury started competing in the NCAA's in 1994?-1995? season a lot of fans were giving Middlebury the same gripe because they didn't play the "normal" NCAA playoff teams at that time. It was a "who is Middlebury" but they had a tradition behind them. Adrian didn't, they have to prove they belong, some fans wanted it gift wrapped and just handed over to them without playing ..well lets face it...anybody...

 

[Stormy8174]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Not when you are talking about the poll. By its very nature the poll is subjective, which brings in much more than just the scoreboard. Plattsburgh's loss to Oswego was in Leis' second collegiate game. That can be taken into account for the purposes of a poll. Taking three points in Vermont from Middlebury and Norwich, to me, does give Plattsburgh credibility towards that #1 ranking. However, it's November and that ranking doesn't mean squat to anyone other than us posters.

By the way, something Oswego and Plattsburgh fans should agree on: if you poll Ed Gosek and Bob Emery, I would bet neither one of them wants this bull's eye on their back this early in the season. If they had their choice, the other one could have the #1 ranking!

I'd certainly agree that I would rather not be #1 at this stage of the game. Personally, I was surprised that Oswego started as high as they did in the poll at the start of the season. That being said, I'm not disliking the #1 ranking, or having it shared but it would best be served as coming when both teams are about to play each other.

 

[Stormy8174]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

You can't always go by scores to see how good teams are....

and the validity of the KRACH?

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/?data=krach3m

1 - Oswego...SOS is ranked 2nd
2 - Salem State...SOS is ranked 1st
3 - St. Norbert...SOS is ranked 10th
4 - Adrian...SOS is ranked 67th
5 - Plattsburgh...SOS is ranked 7th

Further...

7 - Norwich...SOS is ranked 6th
8 - Elmira...SOS is ranked 12th

17 - Middlebury...SOS is ranked 14th

I'm not putting everything into this rating system, however...on SOS...

Oswego plays the present 7th and 12th SOS ranked teams
Plattsburgh plays the present 2nd, 6th, and 14th SOS ranked teams

If anything, Oswego's "strong" schedule may help Plattsburgh in being high in the rankings. Ultimately, if looking at this and actually trying to fry myself over hours of contemplating votes, it might actually make sense that Plattsburg is tied with Oswego, but I would still gave Oswego the 1-first-place-vote edge just because of that win on the road, regardless of it not being "total domination" after all, after that game the voters saw it good enough as a "win is a win" so that Plattsburgh dropped more then a few spots to below Oswego.

 

[Derek Dunning]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

According to the Krach,

Elmira's win over Morrisville was more important than the Hobart sweep and win over Neumann!

 

[Frazier]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

I'd certainly agree that I would rather not be #1 at this stage of the game. Personally, I was surprised that Oswego started as high as they did in the poll at the start of the season. That being said, I'm not disliking the #1 ranking, or having it shared but it would best be served as coming when both teams are about to play each other.

You know you are a fan when you can read 5 minutes of arguments about who the best team might be and you actually get it even though you have learned through bitter experience that the season has barely started and its all pretty meaningless this early in the year. I agree that it is just as good not to be # 1 but if Plattsburgh needs to share that honor I can think of no better team than OSWEGO to share it with. If you are looking for something to compare I would suggest GF and GA. Oswego has scored 48, Plattsburgh 41. Goals against 16-14. If strength of schedule is a concern then compare only SUNYAC GF-GA If you look at SUNYAC Stats it appears fairly even although Plattsburgh has played an extra game. I would guess that on a given night either team might wind up on top.
Should be a good season.

Go Cards

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

According to the Krach,

Elmira's win over Morrisville was more important than the Hobart sweep and win over Neumann!

Also according to KRACH, MSOE doesn't exist.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

"After watching the tape of the PrimeLink, I felt we were the best team that weekend even though we didn't win the tournament," Emery said.

Wow no kidding, someone else thinks you can be the best team with out winning... And its even a coach....

"We've had some disciplinary issues and haven't had our full team available yet."

Wow again....go figure....

 

[93GreatLaker]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Wow no kidding, someone else thinks you can be the best team with out winning... And its even a coach....



Wow again....go figure....

So its not only the fans that offer up excuses, now its the coach as well......go figure.

 

[aerogroup2]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

"After watching the tape of the PrimeLink, I felt we were the best team that weekend even though we didn't win the tournament," Emery said.

"We outchanced Norwich, 9-4, in Grade A scoring chances. It has always been a tough place for us to play and I felt we played well enough to win."

Full story here:http://www.pressrepublican.com/0300_sports/local_story_338002255.html

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

So its not only the fans that offer up excuses, now its the coach as well......go figure.

Not NEARLY as many as we've heard from Tanker fans over the past 10 games against... Once again, we don't want to waste the bandwidth of USCHO to list all of them....

 

[nysportsfan29]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Elmira still gets to meet Plattsburgh in January at the Thunderdomes. That'll be another measuring stick weekend as well as the Pathfinder Bank Classic with another showdown rubber match game with Oswego.

IF Elmira gets by MSOE first. Clearly that's a big if, which is why I made it big.

Obviously the Plattsburgh offense had to be pretty good if they put up 34 shots on Oswego (which is the 2nd most shots allowed)

If they were only second, the team that put up the most should obviously be ranked with Oswego...

Hang on, that's Elmira. F that.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

If they were only second, the team that put up the most should obviously be ranked with Oswego...

Hang on, that's Elmira. F that.

Obviously if they were a "better" team then yes. Elmira didn't out shoot them by 20 and outplay them for 80% of the game.

And why would you say "F" that? Because Oswego was the better team on the ice that night but still lost 1-2?? If you were actually at the game you would know that minus about a 5-10 minute span in the second period Oswego took it to Elmira pretty good. Tuttle played very well and stopped several grade a scoring chances Oswego poured on him. If Elmira had dominated play like Plattsburgh did against Oswego, then I would say they should be ranked up there...however Elmira has their own issues this year...Morrisville, Fredonia, Lebanon Valley.....because remember, its just about scores....

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: New Poll Predictions for 11/30

Obviously if they were a "better" team then yes. Elmira didn't out shoot them by 20 and outplay them for 80% of the game.

And why would you say "F" that? Because Oswego was the better team on the ice that night but still lost 1-2?? If you were actually at the game you would know that minus about a 5-10 minute span in the second period Oswego took it to Elmira pretty good. Tuttle played very well and stopped several grade a scoring chances Oswego poured on him. If Elmira had dominated play like Plattsburgh did against Oswego, then I would say they should be ranked up there...however Elmira has their own issues this year...Morrisville, Fredonia, Lebanon Valley.....because remember, its just about scores....

And even with Elmira not playing well for most of the semester they are still 7-2...Not too shabby considering for a stretch of about 5 or 6 years Elmira was notorious for getting off to very slow starts and then turning it on in the second half of the season. Don't forget they were missing three of their top forwards at the beginning of the season and are still missing Schrank.

We'll see how far they've come this weekend with a big road trip to Utica and Manhattanville.