MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Seems to me this thread isn't about qualifications on everything such as who has advantages, etc. Its about greatness, that's it.

Your lense is down to only one dimension again. Its certainly not how the article I posted looks at it...UW is just #5. Is your one dimension the only advantage UW has over MN? Not head to head, overall wins, how storied, greater regional fanbase, anything else?

If so in the case of UW, I think you place quite a bit of importance on just one game.

no no no, my big post re recruiting advantages has nothing to do w/the nhl link you posted. clearly (for now) michigan and mn are ahead of everyone.

my post on recruiting is to jdubbs. if you're going to go around and thump your chest about how you're the "state of hockey", which, let's get serious this sport originated in canada so that would be like a province in canada suddenly saying they're "the province of football", but anyway, if you're going to say everything hockey in the US points to or originates from Minnesota you're going to be heaped w/ridicule and derision, especially when your flagship state team doesn't match other schools in NCAA titles who are "younger" programs or, saddled with the fact they're NOT "the state of hockey" therefore having recruiting disadvantages which make their accomplishments even more significant in comparison.

there's no question minnesota is a model I'm personally jealous of and wish wisconsin had but I'm not going to lament that forever.

jdubbs if your question has to do w/that silly msu-m, bsu, scsu thing, I don't care about those schools. I just don't. they have no rivalries w/UW in any sport, and they almost never have players I want to watch (save backes, parish, cullen) I'd rather see UW play DU/Nodak/MN/BC/Bu/MTU/CC/Mich over those schools.

I honestly don't care what your vaunted opinion of Wisconsin hockey is and wouldn't have started this thread if you'd never barged into the UW thread like a bull in a china shop and continued to thump your chest on "state of hockey" "pride on ice" bs over and over ad nauseum.

when the UW/Rat threads pop-up for games/weekend, THAT IS YOUR THREAD TO CHEST THUMP or whatever you want to do

 

[cross cheque]

Nice try, but no.

I like to banter with Happy, Gurtholfin, etc but you're an idiot. I actually get a kick out of how delusional you are towards gopher hockey. UMTC has a great program and tradition but you are far removed from that reality. Get your tool on!

 

[burd]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Dubber,

I'm sure you're a nice guy who is loyal in many ways, not just hockey. But remember when your first grade teacher kept telling you to stop pressing the pencil so hard and frowning when you did your letters? Well, this stuff is kinda like that. Relax and have a little fun.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

no no no, my big post re recruiting advantages has nothing to do w/the nhl link you posted. clearly (for now) michigan and mn are ahead of everyone.

my post on recruiting is to jdubbs. if you're going to go around and thump your chest about how you're the "state of hockey", which, let's get serious this sport originated in canada so that would be like a province in canada suddenly saying they're "the province of football", but anyway, if you're going to say everything hockey in the US points to or originates from Minnesota you're going to be heaped w/ridicule and derision, especially when your flagship state team doesn't match other schools in NCAA titles who are "younger" programs or, saddled with the fact they're NOT "the state of hockey" therefore having recruiting disadvantages which make their accomplishments even more significant in comparison.

there's no question minnesota is a model I'm personally jealous of and wish wisconsin had but I'm not going to lament that forever.

jdubbs if your question has to do w/that silly msu-m, bsu, scsu thing, I don't care about those schools. I just don't. they have no rivalries w/UW in any sport, and they almost never have players I want to watch (save backes, parish, cullen) I'd rather see UW play DU/Nodak/MN/BC/Bu/MTU/CC/Mich over those schools.

I honestly don't care what your vaunted opinion of Wisconsin hockey is and wouldn't have started this thread if you'd never barged into the UW thread like a bull in a china shop and continued to thump your chest on "state of hockey" "pride on ice" bs over and over ad nauseum.

when the UW/Rat threads pop-up for games/weekend, THAT IS YOUR THREAD TO CHEST THUMP or whatever you want to do

UW isn't too good to play SCSU, BSU, and Mankato. They aren't. I'm sorry, but UW finished BEHIND two of those programs this year.

If I hadn't read comments suggesting uW is too good to play those programs in the UW thread, this thread probably wouldn't exist. See where I'm going with this?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I like to banter with Happy, Gurtholfin, etc but you're an idiot. I actually get a kick out of how delusional you are towards gopher hockey. UMTC has a great program and tradition but you are far removed from that reality. Get your tool on!

Personal attacks don't prove points.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Dubber,

I'm sure you're a nice guy who is loyal in many ways, not just hockey. But remember when your first grade teacher kept telling you to stop pressing the pencil so hard and frowning when you did your letters? Well, this stuff is kinda like that. Relax and have a little fun.

I think you're a bit. Not really worth the time responding to bits

 

[REDMEN2002]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Personal attacks don't prove points.

But in this case, it may just prove his accuracy. That of course is open to discussion. Perhaps a thread on your intellect as discussed by others is in order?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

But in this case, it may just prove his accuracy. That of course is open to discussion. Perhaps a thread on your intellect as discussed by others is in order?

More personal attacks. Sigh...

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

UW isn't too good to play SCSU, BSU, and Mankato. They aren't. I'm sorry, but UW finished BEHIND two of those programs this year.

If I hadn't read comments suggesting uW is too good to play those programs in the UW thread, this thread probably wouldn't exist. See where I'm going with this?

I don't know what you're talking about and won't dig for it. Saying I'd rather see UW play x over y is not that same as saying UW is too good to play y thetefor should play x.

also - you should know that because UW finished behind those 2 teams one year it's not evidence of anything beyond 1 year. otherwise I'd bring up the prior 3 years of Minnesota hockey (the 3 prior to last season)...you know, the ones where 1/2 the fanbase wanted Lucia fired?

 

[SteveF]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

BC is way too good to play minnesota over and over again. i dont know why we signed a deal with them. easy wins i guess. probably wont help in pairwise

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I don't know what you're talking about and won't dig for it. Saying I'd rather see UW play x over y is not that same as saying UW is too good to play y thetefor should play x.

also - you should know that because UW finished behind those 2 teams one year it's not evidence of anything beyond 1 year. otherwise I'd bring up the prior 3 years of Minnesota hockey (the 3 prior to last season)...you know, the ones where 1/2 the fanbase wanted Lucia fired?

The point is that I wasn't the one who started the whole "my program is too good to play X program" discussion. So excuse me if I say that you look a little hypocritical calling me out for my opinions.

And FYI - Even when Minnesota was down the past three years, we never finished 10th in the WCHA.

 

[skiumah2]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

in order to demonstrate UMN outperforms UW in hockey overall you have so many factors to consider this could take a 500-page book. As a UW fan I see UW has outperformed MN in the games that matter which is Wisconsin 6 to 5.

but let's add in the other stuff, conference titles, frozen four runs etc. fine. to counterbalance that you must know and acknowledge that recruiting against MN is recruiting against the school that has the absolute deepest pool of talent in the country, and the biggest advantages: one in which almost EVERY kid wants to be a gopher. with all of that talent they **** well better win some conference championships! I think UW has done more w/less given that. There is virtually 1/5 (at best) the home-grown talent in Wisconsin to feed UW in hockey recruits so they MUST necessarily reach out all over the place for players: to MN (where they're at a huge disadvantage unless they find Sean Hill's who want to leave home for college), to CANADA where they compete w/DU, NODAK, and many others, to IL where they compete against michigan head to head, Michigan State and a few others including Notre Dame, to Michigan where well you know by now where I'm going w/this.

as it stands MN has everything a hockey program could DREAM of for success. A rabid (and great) hockey culture that through youth programs provides so much talent they cannot retain all of it, but they DO generally get the cream of the crop. so any team facing the Rats has a disadvantage re: minnesota players as the best go to be rats, and the 2nd-team all-state guys (with a few notable exceptions like Parise, McDonagh, Besse, Sertich for CC) go to other teams like UW/Nodak/DU/SCSU

so w/all the talent in their world at their disposal, all the Spehar's, Bonin's, Mchugh's, Crowley's, Broten's, Strobel's, etc they somehow manage to look up to Wisconsin, Denver and North Dakota for the most important hardware. to me that says UW/DU/Nodak has outperformed the rats (from 1963 forward for UW, not sure the years for DU/Nodak)

and don't forget "Badger" Bob Johnson didn't takeover a UW team w/30-years of continuous history and recruiting and rivalries and the help of a Mariucci in building the culture. no, he took over a team w/no resources whatsoever and built them into a winner in short order. one that went from 0 to 6 NCAA titles in 34 years. 1 NCAA title every 6 years? that's **** effing good I'd say

Your response leads me to believe you think I was diminishing the accomplishments of UW hockey. On the contrary. Other than believing UMN hockey has accomplished more, I'm pretty sure I gave credit where credit is due. Your post that I quoted here proves my point, UW hockey fans point to one thing and one thing only. UW has more NCAA titles than UMN. This fact somehow proves to Badger fans that UW hockey has the upper hand. solovsfett, if you can also say UMN football has the upper hand over UW football than I'll give you your arguement. I'll still contend you're wrong but you'd at least be consistent.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Your response leads me to believe you think I was diminishing the accomplishments of UW hockey. On the contrary. Other than believing UMN hockey has accomplished more, I'm pretty sure I gave credit where credit is due. Your post that I quoted here proves my point, UW hockey fans point to one thing and one thing only. UW has more NCAA titles than UMN. This fact somehow proves to Badger fans that UW hockey has the upper hand. solovsfett, if you can also say UMN football has the upper hand over UW football than I'll give you your arguement. I'll still contend you're wrong but you'd at least be consistent.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Your response leads me to believe you think I was diminishing the accomplishments of UW hockey. On the contrary. Other than believing UMN hockey has accomplished more, I'm pretty sure I gave credit where credit is due. Your post that I quoted here proves my point, UW hockey fans point to one thing and one thing only. UW has more NCAA titles than UMN. This fact somehow proves to Badger fans that UW hockey has the upper hand. solovsfett, if you can also say UMN football has the upper hand over UW football than I'll give you your arguement. I'll still contend you're wrong but you'd at least be consistent.

true, maybe I should amend to say UW has the upper-hand from 1973 through today (just MY opinion) given NCAA titles and the hurdles they had to overcome just to get to NCAA title #1, let alone 5 more as they have no recruiting advantage at home.

re: UW vs. UMN football? I have 0 clue. I don't know Minnesota's history there so cannot comment on it

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

The point is that I wasn't the one who started the whole "my program is too good to play X program" discussion. So excuse me if I say that you look a little hypocritical calling me out for my opinions.

And FYI - Even when Minnesota was down the past three years, we never finished 10th in the WCHA.

I'm not calling you out for anything other than please stop pushing Minnesota and the whole "pride on ice", "we're the best evah" on us in UW threads. generally we've saved our most nutso stuff for the weekend series threads, so when the rats come to Madison or badgers head northwest bring out the gattling gun then in those threads, just not in the UW recruiting or season (off-season) threads where actual fans of the team discuss solely (generally) that team

I can't even remember the last time I went to a MN thread that wasn't a UW/MN thread and commented with anything negative (as if it would pertain anyway). I DO remember posting positive opinions on Lucia when you guys were down on him and I wasn't being sarcastic either

 

[Bakunin]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

UW vs. UMN football? I have 0 clue. I don't know Minnesota's history there so cannot comment on it

They basically gave it to you; MN has a handful of national titles in football, and UW does not. If one is to claim a program's superiority based solely on NT's, then MN's football program is superior to a lot of other ones. From my POV (and many others), such logic is nutso; MN's football team has not been relevant in my lifetime and may never be. To claim superiority over others who have been far better over the past 30+ years while MN has generally been terrible would be ridiculous. This is why a more balanced and comprehensive assessment is needed to determine how strong a program actually is. NT's are but one part of the equation (an important part to be sure but not the only part). If your team wins a bunch of titles 40+ years ago and then sucks from that point on, does it make any sense to claim superiority over others who have been far better since then?

FS23 created a thread and a system to assess program strength. One can argue the merits of his system, but I think it does a far better job than simply throwing out things like "7>5, 6>5", etc. And in the case of MN and UW in hockey, MN has been in the hunt for a title far more often than UW has. Obviously, MN has a pretty ****ty conversion rate in the Frozen Four, but they make it there far more frequently. Whether you believe that equates to a better program than one with one more NCAA title is of course totally up to you.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

The point is that I wasn't the one who started the whole "my program is too good to play X program" discussion. So excuse me if I say that you look a little hypocritical calling me out for my opinions.

Really? Let's have a look shall we?

For context, I was responding to Almington who said something to the effect that he hopes we continue to schedule teams (once we are in the BTHC) that we have a history with, especially current WCHA teams, rather than someone like Miami who, while good, we have no history with.

Now, my response follows. Maybe, some would take offense to my tone (although if you do, you wouldn't survive the typical series thread), but again, this was in the UW thread. I didn't go to the SCSU, BSU or any other thread to say the following...

As someone who's gotta pay for these games each year, I'd rather see us play a quality opponent - regardless of history. Bring in Notre Dame too.

BSU, Mankato, Tech, Omaha, UAA, heck, even CC and SCSU... wake me when it's over.

The fact (hopefully) that we will leave the WCHA but retain UND and Denver has actually rejuvenated my interest in the regular season on a micro level. Meaning - more than interested in the regular season as just a path to the playoffs. I will actually care more about individual games than just how they effect our record.

I'm really looking forward to seeing some new blood on the schedule.

It'd be cool if we could play Duluth every once in a while also.

That's it.

Nowhere did I say, or even imply that UW (the hockey program) was "too good" to play anyone. I said that I don't care, as a season ticket holder, to pay to see us play against those teams any more. Not because UW is "too good" to play those teams, but because I am too good to go watch it. I'd rather do other things with my time and money. How's THAT for arrogance Gopher fan?

Now let's see how Dubbie responded. Multiple posts follow and in all of them, just like he claimed, he is respectful and staying on topic.

Funny, the way you guys feel about continuing to play Mankato, Bemidji State, and St Cloud is pretty similar to the way a lot of Gopher fans have always felt about playing UW.

Isn't it annoying to have to play inferior programs?

I just wonder how taking this hard-line stance against playing 3/5 of the MN schools is going to effect your recruiting in Minny? You'll be playing far less games in Minnesota. Less exposure there and less chance for the parents of potential recruits to watch their kids play.

As for whom is the inferior program, your school lacks any history and tradition while our cup overfloweth

In this sport, all Minnesota news matters. Whine about it, cry about it, but eventually everyone learns to face that fact.

Yes, there is a very large component of Gopher fans who were very upset when we were placed in the same pod as UW. We would have rather been playing UND 4 games a year.

And sorry, but I don't think your program has much history (you dropped your program for nearly 30 years). What are your program's traditions? Hiring coaches with Minnesota connections? Importing Canadian and Minnesota players? Having a fanbase that largely doesn't understand the game?

Yes, you have won six titles, but you have won far less conference championships and made far less frozen fours than other schools I would consider traditional powers. I'd say your program has been lucky.

Not trying to start a fight Solo, but I do think it's comical that some in your fanbase look down on the smaller MN programs because that is exactly how I feel about the Badgers sometimes. Kinda a BLAH feeling.

Hmmmm. It appears that YOU (Dubbie) in fact invented this issue of UW fans supposedly feeling that UW is too good to play the state schools in Minnesota. Then you turned it around and implied that a "large component" of Gopher fans doesn't want to play us just like we don't want to play the state schools. BTW, why didn't you stick up for CC, UAA, Tech and UNO? Oh yeah, they're not from Minnesota.

This is your pathology. You start a s-h-i-t storm over provincial issues and then when everyone jumps on you, you change the subject, invent the subject or try to play the victim. People insult you because no one values your contributions around here on any level ever and want you to go away but you don't and you continue to insert yourself into conversations that don't involve or concern you and then without fail, you turn those conversations into something about Minnesota hockey superiority.

The fact of the matter is that you were insulted that I didn't want to go see us play the state schools from Minnesota. You took it personally and started this entire, ridiculous, tiresome circle-jerk. All because you saw it as your role to defend the honor of the state schools from Minnesota, but not UAA, CC or UNO.

Anyway, just wanted to set the record straight, not that anyone probably believed the Boy Who Cried Badger.



Footnote: To any of you who have a problem with me not wanting to pay for some of the games on our home schedule after being a season ticket holder for both nights for almost 20 years, you're welcome to buy some of them from me. In fact, many of my season football tickets are for sale also. Just don't care to see our football team play UTEP, Northern Iowa or even Indiana, Purdue etc...

I can save my money and time and watch that crap on TV.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

I just don't care enough about what dead deer-humping paint thinner swill-drinking badger rapers think.

You say all that like it's a bad thing...

And we don't rape Badgers. Now you've gone too far.

 

[C_Monster]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Please don't view my comments as agreeing with JDUBBS in regards to method or even what I perceive to be his apparant disrespect for what the Wisconsin hockey program has accomplished over the years but I do agree with him indirectly on what I feel he's trying to convey. There are several ways to measure a program against the competition. One of those, and I'll agree the most prominant, is the number of national championships won. However, I believe it is completely inaccurate and misleading to judge a program on this factor only. For the sake of arguement, let's say the current score is UW 6 - UMN 5 and ignore the non-NCAA championships UMN won. Maybe biased, but I believe if you factor all accomplishments into the equation, I will argue the UMN program has outperformed the UW program since the beginning. UMN holds the advantage in every other category. NCAA titles are the most elite of the factors but when UMN has a significant advantage in every other category, I'm not sure how one finds it reasonable to decide UMN hasn't been the better program. No disrespect to UW's accomplishments. I just believe they fall short of UMN's.

What is annoying to Gopher fans is Badger fans never seem to agree with this because they stand behind the number of NCAA Championships won. However, if I bring up to those disagreeing Badger fans that by their logic the Gopher football program is better than the Badger football program, I'm told that that's different. I don't know what the overall head to head football record is for UMN vs. UW but UMN has the advantage. Also, UMN has 6 NCAA football titles to UW's zero. I think UMN even has many more Big Ten Championships but I'm not certain. Even with all of that, I'll still argue that UW's football program is better than UMN's because I believe there are more factors with UW coming out on top. You can cherry pick anything you want to prove your point. However, if you're a reasonable person and view things as objectively as possible, I'm not sure its reasonable to say UW hockey has been better than UMN and UMN football has been better than UW. Getting a Badger fan to use that same line of thinking in regards to the hockey programs has proven to be an attempt at futility. That's what annoys me and that's what I perceive annoys JDUBBS.

Just my .02. Now carry on with the JDUBBS bashing.

I'm going to second this. The dude who started this ridiculous thread proved you right about two posts later.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

I'm going to second this. The dude who started this ridiculous thread proved you right about two posts later.

since you're new you probably don't know why this thread was started. trust me it has nothing to do with my views on minnesota hockey whatsoever. it has EVERYTHING to do with a certain fanboy of ratsota who decided to derail both the UW thread and UW recruiting thread w/his incessant drum beat that hockey in the USA (especially wisconsin apparently) owes absolutely EVERYTHING to minnesota.

it's tiring, it's not the subject of UW threads and speaking for myself I don't want to hear it anymore. I'm aware of rodentsota's history and it's importance to hockey here, I just don't want these lectures to appear in the UW thread where they don't belong.