MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

[Dirty]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

I believe I made the distinctions pretty clear.

Yes, when the situations are very similar you won't apply your same standards to Minnesota. I figured that is what your response would be so thanks for confirming it. Have a wonderful day.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Yes, when the situations are very similar you won't apply your same standards to Minnesota. I figured that is what your response would be so thanks for confirming it. Have a wonderful day.

The situations aren't similar, and I explained why.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

The "intensity" of the fanbase is on display every time I see Mariucci 1/3 empty, which lately, is every game there.

Before you retort, remember that YOU guys are the ones who call yourselves the State of Hockey and claim to have the best fans. Others don't say that about themselves.

Is it only in Wisconsin where...you not a fan if you're not actually attending games?

I don't know I'd say we have the best fans...but we have more fans with the Gophers, more among other programs and more at various levels of the sport which results in probably the greatest metro fanbase in the country.

 

[Biddco]

The situations aren't similar, and I explained why.

I have heard a rumor that it is actually a stolen W.

 

[Dirty]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

I have heard a rumor that it is actually a stolen W.

If that's true, it's also OK. Because Minnesota is allowed to steal things without it affecting their tradition. It actually might even improve Wisconsin's tradition by being graced with having their logo stolen by their neighbors to the west.

 

[Farce Poobah]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Minnesota is so arrogant, even their Great Lake has to be "Superior".

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Good. I guess my point is that folks shouldn't let opposing fanbases dictate the grounds of discussion of greatness...which is based on many factors:

Total wins and losses
Head to head records
Its longevity, tradition and whether its 'storied' with things like the miracle on ice
The size of and intensity of its fanbase
The players...including their accomplishments after school

As a warm up, the Gophers have more players in the NHL than any other school, program, or team in the world...with about 25% more players than #2 program Michigan (CHL teams aren't even on the chart).

Its difficult to challenge the Gophers on almost any other single measure and impossible to do so on all measures.

quick q, where are you getting your numbers on NHL Players? all-time in the NHL over the last 60-70 years? or is it the current year? UW had 22 guys play in the SHOW this year

 

[skiumah2]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Please don't view my comments as agreeing with JDUBBS in regards to method or even what I perceive to be his apparant disrespect for what the Wisconsin hockey program has accomplished over the years but I do agree with him indirectly on what I feel he's trying to convey. There are several ways to measure a program against the competition. One of those, and I'll agree the most prominant, is the number of national championships won. However, I believe it is completely inaccurate and misleading to judge a program on this factor only. For the sake of arguement, let's say the current score is UW 6 - UMN 5 and ignore the non-NCAA championships UMN won. Maybe biased, but I believe if you factor all accomplishments into the equation, I will argue the UMN program has outperformed the UW program since the beginning. UMN holds the advantage in every other category. NCAA titles are the most elite of the factors but when UMN has a significant advantage in every other category, I'm not sure how one finds it reasonable to decide UMN hasn't been the better program. No disrespect to UW's accomplishments. I just believe they fall short of UMN's.

What is annoying to Gopher fans is Badger fans never seem to agree with this because they stand behind the number of NCAA Championships won. However, if I bring up to those disagreeing Badger fans that by their logic the Gopher football program is better than the Badger football program, I'm told that that's different. I don't know what the overall head to head football record is for UMN vs. UW but UMN has the advantage. Also, UMN has 6 NCAA football titles to UW's zero. I think UMN even has many more Big Ten Championships but I'm not certain. Even with all of that, I'll still argue that UW's football program is better than UMN's because I believe there are more factors with UW coming out on top. You can cherry pick anything you want to prove your point. However, if you're a reasonable person and view things as objectively as possible, I'm not sure its reasonable to say UW hockey has been better than UMN and UMN football has been better than UW. Getting a Badger fan to use that same line of thinking in regards to the hockey programs has proven to be an attempt at futility. That's what annoys me and that's what I perceive annoys JDUBBS.

Just my .02. Now carry on with the JDUBBS bashing.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

quick q, where are you getting your numbers on NHL Players? all-time in the NHL over the last 60-70 years? or is it the current year? UW had 22 guys play in the SHOW this year

No prob: University of Minnesota
Players drafted into the NHL: 159

Legendary coach Herb Brooks deserves a truck load of credit for building the Golden Gophers into the perpetual national powerhouse they have become over the years. Brooks, in addition to his three national championships in Minneapolis, coached the United States Olympic hockey team to a gold medal in 1980, leading the infamous Miracle on Ice and sealing his legendary status, putting Gopher hockey on the map for good.

Read more: http://www.askmen.com/top_10/fitness_top_ten_100/113c_fitness_list.html#ixzz1tT67rO8e

 

[JDUBBS1280]

If that's true, it's also OK. Because Minnesota is allowed to steal things without it affecting their tradition. It actually might even improve Wisconsin's tradition by being graced with having their logo stolen by their neighbors to the west.

We don't steal traditions, we make them

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Please don't view my comments as agreeing with JDUBBS in regards to method or even what I perceive to be his apparant disrespect for what the Wisconsin hockey program has accomplished over the years but I do agree with him indirectly on what I feel he's trying to convey. There are several ways to measure a program against the competition. One of those, and I'll agree the most prominant, is the number of national championships won. However, I believe it is completely inaccurate and misleading to judge a program on this factor only. For the sake of arguement, let's say the current score is UW 6 - UMN 5 and ignore the non-NCAA championships UMN won. Maybe biased, but I believe if you factor all accomplishments into the equation, I will argue the UMN program has outperformed the UW program since the beginning. UMN holds the advantage in every other category. NCAA titles are the most elite of the factors but when UMN has a significant advantage in every other category, I'm not sure how one finds it reasonable to decide UMN hasn't been the better program. No disrespect to UW's accomplishments. I just believe they fall short of UMN's.

What is annoying to Gopher fans is Badger fans never seem to agree with this because they stand behind the number of NCAA Championships won. However, if I bring up to those disagreeing Badger fans that by their logic the Gopher football program is better than the Badger football program, I'm told that that's different. I don't know what the overall head to head football record is for UMN vs. UW but UMN has the advantage. Also, UMN has 6 NCAA football titles to UW's zero. I think UMN even has many more Big Ten Championships but I'm not certain. Even with all of that, I'll still argue that UW's football program is better than UMN's because I believe there are more factors with UW coming out on top. You can cherry pick anything you want to prove your point. However, if you're a reasonable person and view things as objectively as possible, I'm not sure its reasonable to say UW hockey has been better than UMN and UMN football has been better than UW. Getting a Badger fan to use that same line of thinking in regards to the hockey programs has proven to be an attempt at futility. That's what annoys me and that's what I perceive annoys JDUBBS.

Just my .02. Now carry on with the JDUBBS bashing.

This.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Please don't view my comments as agreeing with JDUBBS in regards to method or even what I perceive to be his apparant disrespect for what the Wisconsin hockey program has accomplished over the years but I do agree with him indirectly on what I feel he's trying to convey. There are several ways to measure a program against the competition. One of those, and I'll agree the most prominant, is the number of national championships won. However, I believe it is completely inaccurate and misleading to judge a program on this factor only. For the sake of arguement, let's say the current score is UW 6 - UMN 5 and ignore the non-NCAA championships UMN won. Maybe biased, but I believe if you factor all accomplishments into the equation, I will argue the UMN program has outperformed the UW program since the beginning. UMN holds the advantage in every other category. NCAA titles are the most elite of the factors but when UMN has a significant advantage in every other category, I'm not sure how one finds it reasonable to decide UMN hasn't been the better program. No disrespect to UW's accomplishments. I just believe they fall short of UMN's.

What is annoying to Gopher fans is Badger fans never seem to agree with this because they stand behind the number of NCAA Championships won. However, if I bring up to those disagreeing Badger fans that by their logic the Gopher football program is better than the Badger football program, I'm told that that's different. I don't know what the overall head to head football record is for UMN vs. UW but UMN has the advantage. Also, UMN has 6 NCAA football titles to UW's zero. I think UMN even has many more Big Ten Championships but I'm not certain. Even with all of that, I'll still argue that UW's football program is better than UMN's because I believe there are more factors with UW coming out on top. You can cherry pick anything you want to prove your point. However, if you're a reasonable person and view things as objectively as possible, I'm not sure its reasonable to say UW hockey has been better than UMN and UMN football has been better than UW. Getting a Badger fan to use that same line of thinking in regards to the hockey programs has proven to be an attempt at futility. That's what annoys me and that's what I perceive annoys JDUBBS.

Just my .02. Now carry on with the JDUBBS bashing.

in order to demonstrate UMN outperforms UW in hockey overall you have so many factors to consider this could take a 500-page book. As a UW fan I see UW has outperformed MN in the games that matter which is Wisconsin 6 to 5.

but let's add in the other stuff, conference titles, frozen four runs etc. fine. to counterbalance that you must know and acknowledge that recruiting against MN is recruiting against the school that has the absolute deepest pool of talent in the country, and the biggest advantages: one in which almost EVERY kid wants to be a gopher. with all of that talent they **** well better win some conference championships! I think UW has done more w/less given that. There is virtually 1/5 (at best) the home-grown talent in Wisconsin to feed UW in hockey recruits so they MUST necessarily reach out all over the place for players: to MN (where they're at a huge disadvantage unless they find Sean Hill's who want to leave home for college), to CANADA where they compete w/DU, NODAK, and many others, to IL where they compete against michigan head to head, Michigan State and a few others including Notre Dame, to Michigan where well you know by now where I'm going w/this.

as it stands MN has everything a hockey program could DREAM of for success. A rabid (and great) hockey culture that through youth programs provides so much talent they cannot retain all of it, but they DO generally get the cream of the crop. so any team facing the Rats has a disadvantage re: minnesota players as the best go to be rats, and the 2nd-team all-state guys (with a few notable exceptions like Parise, McDonagh, Besse, Sertich for CC) go to other teams like UW/Nodak/DU/SCSU

so w/all the talent in their world at their disposal, all the Spehar's, Bonin's, Mchugh's, Crowley's, Broten's, Strobel's, etc they somehow manage to look up to Wisconsin, Denver and North Dakota for the most important hardware. to me that says UW/DU/Nodak has outperformed the rats (from 1963 forward for UW, not sure the years for DU/Nodak)

and don't forget "Badger" Bob Johnson didn't takeover a UW team w/30-years of continuous history and recruiting and rivalries and the help of a Mariucci in building the culture. no, he took over a team w/no resources whatsoever and built them into a winner in short order. one that went from 0 to 6 NCAA titles in 34 years. 1 NCAA title every 6 years? that's **** effing good I'd say

 

[solovsfett]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

No prob: University of Minnesota
Players drafted into the NHL: 159

Legendary coach Herb Brooks deserves a truck load of credit for building the Golden Gophers into the perpetual national powerhouse they have become over the years. Brooks, in addition to his three national championships in Minneapolis, coached the United States Olympic hockey team to a gold medal in 1980, leading the infamous Miracle on Ice and sealing his legendary status, putting Gopher hockey on the map for good.

Read more: http://www.askmen.com/top_10/fitness_top_ten_100/113c_fitness_list.html#ixzz1tT67rO8e

good stuff, thanks!

 

[JDUBBS1280]

in order to demonstrate UMN outperforms UW in hockey overall you have so many factors to consider this could take a 500-page book. As a UW fan I see UW has outperformed MN in the games that matter which is Wisconsin 6 to 5.

but let's add in the other stuff, conference titles, frozen four runs etc. fine. to counterbalance that you must know and acknowledge that recruiting against MN is recruiting against the school that has the absolute deepest pool of talent in the country, and the biggest advantages: one in which almost EVERY kid wants to be a gopher. with all of that talent they **** well better win some conference championships! I think UW has done more w/less given that. There is virtually 1/5 (at best) the home-grown talent in Wisconsin to feed UW in hockey recruits so they MUST necessarily reach out all over the place for players: to MN (where they're at a huge disadvantage unless they find Sean Hill's who want to leave home for college), to CANADA where they compete w/DU, NODAK, and many others, to IL where they compete against michigan head to head, Michigan State and a few others including Notre Dame, to Michigan where well you know by now where I'm going w/this.

as it stands MN has everything a hockey program could DREAM of for success. A rabid (and great) hockey culture that through youth programs provides so much talent they cannot retain all of it, but they DO generally get the cream of the crop. so any team facing the Rats has a disadvantage re: minnesota players as the best go to be rats, and the 2nd-team all-state guys (with a few notable exceptions like Parise, McDonagh, Besse, Sertich for CC) go to other teams like UW/Nodak/DU/SCSU

so w/all the talent in their world at their disposal, all the Spehar's, Bonin's, Mchugh's, Crowley's, Broten's, Strobel's, etc they somehow manage to look up to Wisconsin, Denver and North Dakota for the most important hardware. to me that says UW/DU/Nodak has outperformed the rats (from 1963 forward for UW, not sure the years for DU/Nodak)

and don't forget "Badger" Bob Johnson didn't takeover a UW team w/30-years of continuous history and recruiting and rivalries and the help of a Mariucci in building the culture. no, he took over a team w/no resources whatsoever and built them into a winner in short order. one that went from 0 to 6 NCAA titles in 34 years. 1 NCAA title every 6 years? that's **** effing good I'd say

You still haven't answered my question

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

So, Solovsfett started this thread, presumably to confront me on what he felt was an injustice done by me on UW hockey.

I didn't run and hide. I didn't ignore the topic. I have explained my position without attacking the position of others.

Yet, Solovsfett continues to refuse to answer this question. Why am I a jerk for saying UMN is too good to play UW, but others aren't jerks for saying UW is too good to play SCSU, Mankato, and Bemidji?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

so w/all the talent in their world at their disposal, all the Spehar's, Bonin's, Mchugh's, Crowley's, Broten's, Strobel's, etc they somehow manage to look up to Wisconsin, Denver and North Dakota for the most important hardware. to me that says UW/DU/Nodak has outperformed the rats (from 1963 forward for UW, not sure the years for DU/Nodak)

Seems to me this thread isn't about qualifications on everything such as who has advantages, etc. Its about greatness, that's it.

Your lense is down to only one dimension again. Its certainly not how the article I posted looks at it...UW is just #5. Is your one dimension the only advantage UW has over MN? Not head to head, overall wins, how storied, greater regional fanbase, anything else?

If so in the case of UW, I think you place quite a bit of importance on just one game.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

So, Solovsfett started this thread, presumably to confront me on what he felt was an injustice done by me on UW hockey.

I didn't run and hide. I didn't ignore the topic. I have explained my position without attacking the position of others.

Yet, Solovsfett continues to refuse to answer this question. Why am I a jerk for saying UMN is too good to play UW, but others aren't jerks for saying UW is too good to play SCSU, Mankato, and Bemidji?

No one cares.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

No one cares.

I didn't start the thread

 

[burd]

Re: MN Hockey - "We're So SPECIAL!"

Wisconsin fans are clearly winning this argument, and it must be close to over, since just about everything has been said, so the Minnies should probably pull Dubber and go for the Big Point.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Wisconsin fans are clearly winning this argument, and it must be close to over, since just about everything has been said, so the Minnies should probably pull Dubber and go for the Big Point.

Nice try, but no.