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MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
- Thread starter joecct
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Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
Actually I went to ESPN.com and looked it up. Took me about a minute.
Actually I went to ESPN.com and looked it up. Took me about a minute.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
I was meaning that because you said "unnecessarily" which implies you are a fan of pitch counts/inning counts.
I was meaning that because you said "unnecessarily" which implies you are a fan of pitch counts/inning counts.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
Exactly. A guy like Halladay or Lee or Sabathia don't need a pitch count. You have to build your arm strength so you don't blow it out before you're 25.
Exactly. A guy like Halladay or Lee or Sabathia don't need a pitch count. You have to build your arm strength so you don't blow it out before you're 25.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
So how do you get the arm strength, etc. to pitch 16 innings of shut out ball like Spahn vs. Marichal did back in the early 60's?
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
Have batters stop lifting weights and watching video tape.
Have batters stop lifting weights and watching video tape.
hockeyplayer1015
Capt
Beer, Hot Dogs and... Nachos. All of the nachos.
D
Deleted member 3166
Guest
Blyleven says a lot that kids should stop being taught how to throw curve balls before they are 16, that the arm is not developed enough to handle the strain before then.
It does seem odd to me how many guys seem to blow their arms out now.
aparch
Well-known member
And he's absolutely right. That kid who threw the dirty curve in the LLWS? If he keeps doing it regularly, he'll be undergoing Tommy Johns before he his draft eligibility.
The other big thing that I've read is that kids are playing baseball year round. Little Johnny done with summer ball? There are fall leagues. Hit the indoor cages for pitching in the winter. Spring league. High school ball. Summer scouts camps. More indoor winter training. College ball in the spring. Repeat ad nauseum until your arm falls off.
These kids never get a chance to let their arms recover fully.
P
Priceless
Guest
....And taking PEDs
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
There was an article somewhere that kids WANT to get Tommy John while they're young as it seems their arms are "stronger" after the surgery.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
It has been suggested on talk radio (maybe even by legitimate doctors, I don't know) that minor league pitchers should get Tommy John surgery before they come up the the Majors. Where does the line sit between using medical technology to heal/restore and using it to gain an edge? Or has that line been obliterated?
There was an article somewhere that kids WANT to get Tommy John while they're young as it seems their arms are "stronger" after the surgery.
It has been suggested on talk radio (maybe even by legitimate doctors, I don't know) that minor league pitchers should get Tommy John surgery before they come up the the Majors. Where does the line sit between using medical technology to heal/restore and using it to gain an edge? Or has that line been obliterated?
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
Clearly it hasn't been obliterated given the PED witch hunt that's still going on.
Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
This. Conventional wisdom going back many decades is that you try to keep the innings down until the pitcher is 23-25.
There's always somebody with some story about Johnny Bigdick throwing 379 innings back in 19-dickty-3 when he was 17. Maybe so, but by the time Johnny was 22, dollars to donuts says he was stocking Cream of Wheat on the shelves at the local Piggly Wiggly because his arm was shot to hell.
Warren Spahn
Bob Gibson
Roger Clemens
Steve Carlton
Tom Glavine
None of them hit 200 innings in any professional season (majors or minors) until at least age 23, although Carlton got extremely close at age 22. All are in Cooperstown except for Glavine, and he should arrive there in 2 years, tops.
Denny McLain
Dwight Gooden
Mark Fidrych
All topped 200 innings before age 23. All dropped off dramatically before age 26. Now, there were some other issues, but Fidrych showed up in camp in 1977 after a rookie year with a dead arm. McLain said in his book that his arm started to ache in 1970, at age 26. He was out of baseball right before his 29th birthday, essentially useless on the mound. After Gooden returned from his rehab and as he approached his 30's, his stuff simply wasn't there. I've got to believe that early wear and tear on that arm took its toll as well as the cocaine.
The bottom line is that most organizations tend to keep the innings totals down on the arms until they reach maturity age, usually 23-25 years old. At that point, you can usually turn them loose. I've heard a few pitching coaches say that the first full professional season, you try to stay under 140 innings. The next year you don't exceed 160, or 10-20 percent above the previous year. And so on and so forth...
This. Conventional wisdom going back many decades is that you try to keep the innings down until the pitcher is 23-25.
There's always somebody with some story about Johnny Bigdick throwing 379 innings back in 19-dickty-3 when he was 17. Maybe so, but by the time Johnny was 22, dollars to donuts says he was stocking Cream of Wheat on the shelves at the local Piggly Wiggly because his arm was shot to hell.
Warren Spahn
Bob Gibson
Roger Clemens
Steve Carlton
Tom Glavine
None of them hit 200 innings in any professional season (majors or minors) until at least age 23, although Carlton got extremely close at age 22. All are in Cooperstown except for Glavine, and he should arrive there in 2 years, tops.
Denny McLain
Dwight Gooden
Mark Fidrych
All topped 200 innings before age 23. All dropped off dramatically before age 26. Now, there were some other issues, but Fidrych showed up in camp in 1977 after a rookie year with a dead arm. McLain said in his book that his arm started to ache in 1970, at age 26. He was out of baseball right before his 29th birthday, essentially useless on the mound. After Gooden returned from his rehab and as he approached his 30's, his stuff simply wasn't there. I've got to believe that early wear and tear on that arm took its toll as well as the cocaine.
The bottom line is that most organizations tend to keep the innings totals down on the arms until they reach maturity age, usually 23-25 years old. At that point, you can usually turn them loose. I've heard a few pitching coaches say that the first full professional season, you try to stay under 140 innings. The next year you don't exceed 160, or 10-20 percent above the previous year. And so on and so forth...
Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
I think that's got something to do with pitchers' injuries as well. Pitchers are throwing more pitches now as well due to smaller strike zones. I've got Game 5 of the 1968 World Series, and the 1971 All Star Game, both on DVD. It's amazing how much bigger the strike zone was then. It was nipples to knees. There'd be a half-dozen ejections every night if we called that now.
I think that's got something to do with pitchers' injuries as well. Pitchers are throwing more pitches now as well due to smaller strike zones. I've got Game 5 of the 1968 World Series, and the 1971 All Star Game, both on DVD. It's amazing how much bigger the strike zone was then. It was nipples to knees. There'd be a half-dozen ejections every night if we called that now.
aparch
Well-known member
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
I don't buy the "keep the pitch count down" during the season. How many "simulated games" is the pitcher also throwing? Is he doing any extra bullpen sessions to keep his arm "ready?" Has he been assigned to Winter league to get extra time? How often does he try to catch a player leading off from first? Is he mostly a curveball/specialty pitcher, or fastball?
All these extra activities create wear and tear on the shoulder and elbow. His arm isn't going to fall off after he hits some magical number during a game. The occasional 115 pitch outing isn't going to make our theoretical pitcher any more likely for Tommy Johns. Let's take a look at these extra curriculars during his development instead.
*edit* And I completely disagree with the suggestion that players should get Tommy Johns just to help. If their elbow is that blown out before hitting the MLB, maybe they should rethink just how often/hard/incorrectly they are pitching.
I don't buy the "keep the pitch count down" during the season. How many "simulated games" is the pitcher also throwing? Is he doing any extra bullpen sessions to keep his arm "ready?" Has he been assigned to Winter league to get extra time? How often does he try to catch a player leading off from first? Is he mostly a curveball/specialty pitcher, or fastball?
All these extra activities create wear and tear on the shoulder and elbow. His arm isn't going to fall off after he hits some magical number during a game. The occasional 115 pitch outing isn't going to make our theoretical pitcher any more likely for Tommy Johns. Let's take a look at these extra curriculars during his development instead.
*edit* And I completely disagree with the suggestion that players should get Tommy Johns just to help. If their elbow is that blown out before hitting the MLB, maybe they should rethink just how often/hard/incorrectly they are pitching.
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aparch
Well-known member
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
But... it's the MLB. They won't fix the umpiring, and they won't recommend that kids take time away from baseball to heal because they'll lose $$$ by churning through prospects.
As far as any MLB rule book I've ever seen, the strike zone is still supposed to be from the letters to the knees. Umpires just don't want to call anything above the belt a strike anymore. Fix the umpiring instead of performing a drastic move like raising the mound again.
But... it's the MLB. They won't fix the umpiring, and they won't recommend that kids take time away from baseball to heal because they'll lose $$$ by churning through prospects.
Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!
If you pitch with your legs (see NY Mets staff circa 1969 - 70), you stand a chance of lasting a long time. Pitch without the leg drive, and you're a candidate for the sore arm department.
Clemens* is not yet in the HOF. It may be a long process for him and Bonds*, Sosa*, and a few others in the steroid* era.
If you pitch with your legs (see NY Mets staff circa 1969 - 70), you stand a chance of lasting a long time. Pitch without the leg drive, and you're a candidate for the sore arm department.
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