Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

But hey, Bakukin

Is this typo intentional? Are you trying to turn it into some second-rate bit?

if Houston called and said they would make the deal for Mauer would you? I mean, offense isn't our problem, we have a few catchers in the system and i would bring in a quality arm. I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer

Several key differences with that:
1) Due to Ramos falling apart in the minors, we have nobody in the system that is anywhere near Mauer offensively, even during a "bad" season by his standards. It's far easier to find a good bat to play 1B than catcher. Trade Mauer, and you have someone like Butera back there most of the time - which is an avg 100 points (or more) lower than Mauer's.
2) We just locked him up basically for his career. How many teams out there would be willing to take his contract? The Yanks and Boston are the only two I can think of that would consider it.
3) The fanbase - for better or worse - is far more attached to Mauer than any other player on the team. Trade him, and you **** off a lot of people which would risk the insane profits the franchise is racking up now. Personally, I think if somebody put a monster offer on the table, it'd have to be considered - unfortunately, the bulk of the fans wouldn't see it that way.
4) The offer for Mauer would have to be even bigger than the one for Morneau - Mauer adds more value at his position than Morneau does at his. You could probably demand a top starting pitcher and three good prospects in exchange for Mauer (or deduct a couple prospects in exchange for another above average position player).

BTW the only correct answer is yes given the criteria you used to paint yourself into the corner

I'm not painted into any corners. If a team came up with the type of offer I just listed, the team should at the very least consider it. However, THEY painted themselves into a corner with heavy Mauer marketing and playing up the hometown angle. That has bought them intense fan loyalty at the expense of flexibility with one of their star players. The only thing management should be doing is looking for ways to make the team better while abiding by whatever payroll guidelines they have.

 

[DaveStPaul]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Had some busy family events today, so didn't start watching today's game until the 9th. Went about as well as could be expected, I'd say.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

I wish I could have been a fly on the locker room wall of the Sux after that game. I bet Guillen's tirade was great.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Is this typo intentional? Are you trying to turn it into some second-rate bit?

No I just never cared enough to read what your name really is...sue me

As long as you stay on your idiotic "Trade Morneau for Expensive Pitchers with Health Issues and Worthless Prospects" kick though I doubt that will change I mean TBA and I barely ever agree and yet we both told you that your theory is asinine. You want to trade a guy batting .345 with 18 homers and 56 RBI (1st, 1st and 2nd on the team respectfully) for Roy Oswalt, who by the way is begging day and night for a trade meaning the Astros have zero bargaining power. (not to mention they have no one in their system worth a ****) That just astounds me.

As it is we are wasting Cuddy at first base, you want to make that permanent. Kubel is slow and not exactly the greatest fielder overall in the outfield (not to mention he and Cuddy combined arent as good as Justin at the plate) and yet that is what you want to roll with when we are what 2 games out of first?

I mean if you think that lineup is better than the one with Justin batting cleanup then by all means go for it. But me, I will take the former MVP in the middle of my lineup over having to pray Kubel, Cuddy and Thome can add another 20 points to their average and a lot of HRs.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

No I just never cared enough to read what your name really is...sue me

I would if I thought you were worth more than your posts indicate.

As long as you stay on your idiotic "Trade Morneau for Expensive Pitchers with Health Issues and Worthless Prospects" kick though I doubt that will change

I didn't say to trade him for worthless prospects. I'm nowhere near as much a serious baseball follower as TBA is(I'm much more of a casual fan), so I don't know the status of every team's farm system(please forgive me, for I have sinned!). If Houston's prospect cupboard is truly bare, then they'd obviously not be a trade target. Since he (and/or you) apparently know more than me on this, which team(s) has/have the prospects AND starting pitching/ace(s) necessary to offer sufficient return value for a guy like Morneau?

I mean TBA and I barely ever agree and yet we both told you that your theory is asinine.

Just because the two of you agree on something doesn't mean your opinion has greater merit.

You want to trade a guy batting .345 with 18 homers and 56 RBI (1st, 1st and 2nd on the team respectfully) for Roy Oswalt, who by the way is begging day and night for a trade meaning the Astros have zero bargaining power. (not to mention they have no one in their system worth a ****) That just astounds me.

Given that I did not know that last part to be true when I made my statements in the first place, I'd say that changes the dynamic a bit. Remember, I stated quite clearly that trading a guy like Morneau for Oswalt would require other good players in the deal coming to MN. Now that it's been stated Houston has **** in their system like MN does (or perhaps worse?), that'd make an Oswalt trade unworkable - unless they're willing to take a lesser player/prospects or combination thereof (i.e. Cuddyer + some midlevel prospect).

As it is we are wasting Cuddy at first base, you want to make that permanent. Kubel is slow and not exactly the greatest fielder overall in the outfield (not to mention he and Cuddy combined arent as good as Justin at the plate) and yet that is what you want to roll with when we are what 2 games out of first?

Kubel might make more sense at 1st than Cuddyer. At least Cuddyer has a good arm and brings some defensive value to the outfield. If Houston truly has zero leverage, then try to dump Kubel or Cuddyer on them straight up for Oswalt. I'm guessing they'd rather have their pitcher stay there and be miserable than give him away in that sort of deal. Then again, their GM might be an idiot, so anything's worth a shot.

I mean if you think that lineup is better than the one with Justin batting cleanup then by all means go for it. But me, I will take the former MVP in the middle of my lineup over having to pray Kubel, Cuddy and Thome can add another 20 points to their average and a lot of HRs.

When did I ever say I liked that lineup better?

The whole point of this discussion is to debate whether or not it's worth it to consider trading a good hitter for better pitching. I believe it at least warrants serious consideration since the ****ty starting pitching is a big reason why this team is out of first place rather than running away with the division title against mediocre teams. You apparently believe the lineup is just fine as is and we should make do with our two decent and three horrible starters on the pitching staff - or failing that, you believe MN can get a guy like Oswalt while giving up a mediocre overpaid player like Cuddyer or some combination of ****ty prospects. Maybe MN *can* manage to swing such a deal, but I believe it is unlikely - unless a team is really desperate to dump their best pitchers in some sort of rebuilding attempt.

The bottom line is the team needs to improve its pitching, and it's unlikely they can do that without parting with something of value.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

You know what is scary? Delmon Young is carrying the Twins right now.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

You know what is scary? Delmon Young is carrying the Twins right now.

Shhhh. Some on here will chastise you for daring to believe the team can get by offensively without Morneau.

So, which starter gets shipped to the minors or to long relief duty? Baker, Slowey, or Blackburn? Duensing has earned the right to replace one of them, that's for sure.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Shhhh. Some on here will chastise you for daring to believe the team can get by offensively without Morneau.

So, which starter gets shipped to the minors or to long relief duty? Baker, Slowey, or Blackburn? Duensing has earned the right to replace one of them, that's for sure.

Blackburn to the bullpen for long relief, Duensing to the rotation. Slowey to the firing squad, Manship to the rotation. Burnett to triple-A, Slama to the bullpen.

edit: Prospects, and probably a guy on the big club already, not named Morneau to the Royals, Joakim Soria to the Twins.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Slowey to the firing squad

Just because the guy sucks at pitching doesn't mean we have to shoot him.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Just because the guy sucks at pitching doesn't mean we have to shoot him.

No, but just because we dont HAVE to doesn't mean we SHOULDNT

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

The whole point of this discussion is to debate whether or not it's worth it to consider trading a good hitter for better pitching. I believe it at least warrants serious consideration since the ****ty starting pitching is a big reason why this team is out of first place rather than running away with the division title against mediocre teams. You apparently believe the lineup is just fine as is and we should make do with our two decent and three horrible starters on the pitching staff - or failing that, you believe MN can get a guy like Oswalt while giving up a mediocre overpaid player like Cuddyer or some combination of ****ty prospects. Maybe MN *can* manage to swing such a deal, but I believe it is unlikely - unless a team is really desperate to dump their best pitchers in some sort of rebuilding attempt.

The bottom line is the team needs to improve its pitching, and it's unlikely they can do that without parting with something of value.

I don't think the pitching lineup is worth its weight in cheese right now, and am all for a trade but you don't trade your (arguably) best player for a pitcher unless that pitcher is the cream of the crop, or you are in rebuild mode and you get a ton of prospects. None of the pitchers out there are worth what the Twins would be giving up, none. Even Cliff Lee, who we all wanted, isnt worth that trade because of his contract.

I look at it like this, how will the trade impact the entire team, will they be better overall? Sure it will help the pitching staff, but christ they could pick random people out of the stands and probably keep the status quo! Our defense will be worse though and our batting lineup will take a huge hit over the course of a season. This team has no number 4 hitter besides Justin right now and Cuddy or Kubel there for the long haul means a lot of IBBs for Mauer.

Every other team in the league would be talking about trading prospects...the Twins, who supposedly are better than anyone at building a farm system have no prospects anyone wants. That is a bad sign. Personally, I say trade Valencia and Ramos and throw in Blackburn but only show tapes of his pitching in previous seasons Hell tell any team they can look at the Farm System, pick two players, and we will throw in Blacky just to make them feel good.

No reason to go overboard, and if all teams want is Justin then tell them to get bent. This team can't survive with a slap hitter like Mauer as the big gun, they did last year, but last year he had power and this year he does not.

edit: as one of the few who support Delmon I laugh at all of you that wanted to get rid of him in the offseason. And once again B, it isnt that the team cant survive without Justin, it is whether they are better without him and the pitcher they would get. Not to mention, would they have any shot at postseason success...which I think we know is fleeting even WITH Justin most years.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Interesting poll from the strib website:

Who is the Twins 1st half MVP?

Joe Mauer - 1.9%
Justin Morneau - 30.5%
Carl Pavano - 31.1%
Jon Rauch - 1.2%
Delmon Young - 35.1%

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Hard to argue with the 3 leaders...im still amazed about Pavano being as good as he is.

 

[ajoyce02]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Interesting poll from the strib website:

Who is the Twins 1st half MVP?

Joe Mauer - 1.9%
Justin Morneau - 30.5%
Carl Pavano - 31.1%
Jon Rauch - 1.2%
Delmon Young - 35.1%

Delmonsey would probably get my vote as well.

 

[ARM]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

You know what is scary? Delmon Young is carrying the Twins right now.

And Jesse Crain is currently one of the best options out of the pen. If Baker and Slowey suddenly become reliable, then I'll know that I've died and gone to heaven.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

I don't think the pitching lineup is worth its weight in cheese right now, and am all for a trade but you don't trade your (arguably) best player for a pitcher unless that pitcher is the cream of the crop, or you are in rebuild mode and you get a ton of prospects. None of the pitchers out there are worth what the Twins would be giving up, none. Even Cliff Lee, who we all wanted, isnt worth that trade because of his contract.

...except I wasn't saying Morneau should be traded straight up for a pitcher. His value would command more than that in return. He'd require an ace pitcher, above average RP or position player, and a solid prospect. Sadly, the team with really deep starting pitching (St. Louis) obviously has the 1B they want.

Sure it will help the pitching staff, but christ they could pick random people out of the stands and probably keep the status quo! Our defense will be worse though and our batting lineup will take a huge hit over the course of a season. This team has no number 4 hitter besides Justin right now and Cuddy or Kubel there for the long haul means a lot of IBBs for Mauer.

The way Delmon is hitting, have him bat cleanup. Cripes, he's been hitting nearly .350 over the past 2 months. He's having a breakout season, and it makes no sense to have him batting 7th.

Every other team in the league would be talking about trading prospects...the Twins, who supposedly are better than anyone at building a farm system have no prospects anyone wants. That is a bad sign. Personally, I say trade Valencia and Ramos and throw in Blackburn but only show tapes of his pitching in previous seasons Hell tell any team they can look at the Farm System, pick two players, and we will throw in Blacky just to make them feel good.

That's because when teams look for prospects, they typically want guys that are going to be ready to make the jump relatively quickly. Is there anyone in MN's farm system anywhere near major league ready right now other than perhaps Slama (who'd just be coming up as a bullpen guy)? It's a shame Ramos crapped the bed in AAA, since his value was considerably higher last year.

No reason to go overboard, and if all teams want is Justin then tell them to get bent. This team can't survive with a slap hitter like Mauer as the big gun, they did last year, but last year he had power and this year he does not.

I don't know how many teams would bother asking - since they'd be unwilling to pay the price to get him (same with Mauer). The most likely name they'd ask about these days would be Young I'm guessing.

edit: as one of the few who support Delmon I laugh at all of you that wanted to get rid of him in the offseason. And once again B, it isnt that the team cant survive without Justin, it is whether they are better without him and the pitcher they would get. Not to mention, would they have any shot at postseason success...which I think we know is fleeting even WITH Justin most years.

Strange you throw the Delmon comment in a post responding to me - as I've become a convert since his production picked up in earnest over the 2nd half of last season. He should probably be a target for an extension while he's still affordable. With or without Morneau, this team has little chance of advancing in the playoffs. They need to get rid of some of this starting pitcher deadweight in order to win the division, and they need to somehow find a quality starter to give them sufficient depth to compete with the Yanks and whoever in the ALDS. Pavano has shown himself to be a gamer, Liriano is decent most of the time but has a tendency to blow up at inopportune times, and after that there's nobody. That's a recipe for a 3-1 series loss at best, isn't it?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

The Delmon quote came as part of reading the stuff that came AFTER reading your post...it wasn't directed at you.

Scott Baker is mediocre...lets hope we dont sign him to a con...oh wait!

This team can't win unless they score 5 runs...

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Scott Baker is terrible...lets hope we dont sign him to a con...oh wait!

This team can't win unless they score 8 runs...

FYP.

Maybe we can offer somebody the entire Rochester roster in exchange for a decent starting pitcher. Question is, would anyone accept that?

 

[state of hockey]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

Well, I guess we don't get to make fun of the Tigers for being swept by these guys afterall.

 

[First Time Long Time]

Re: Minnesota Twins 2010 Season Part III, {sigh}

That fifth was a conga line. Da da da da da da HIT. Da da da da da da HIT.