Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

[Greyeagle]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

That is what I thought as well.

If teams like Warroad thinks they are good enough to win the AA tourney they should play up just like Roseau does. Beyond Waroad I dont think I remember a team that won the A that would have won AA.

Plus 32 teams in one tourny...this is high school anything more than 16 is overkill.

I think the two years STA won they would have given any team a run for their money as they had the depth those years, which I don't think they do this year. STA is finally talking about moving up and I'd love to see them in 1AA to add some substance to that cake walk.....er.....section.

Basketball tried similar approach too and didn't work. Plus, I don't see the MSHSL expanding the actual tourney beyond one weekend and (gasp!) appear to show favoritism toward one sport.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Basketball tried similar approach too and didn't work. Plus, I don't see the MSHSL expanding the actual tourney beyond one weekend and (gasp!) appear to show favoritism toward one sport.

Oh, I definitely don't see it happening. It was just a thought I had, and I wanted to post it, nothing more than that.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

That is what I thought as well.

If teams like Warroad thinks they are good enough to win the AA tourny they should play up just like Roseau does. Beyond Waroad I dont think I remember a team that won the A that would have won AA.

Plus 32 teams in one tourny...this is high school anything more than 16 is overkill.

He's basically saying take the top 32, break them into 8 sectionals. Currently there are 69 teams broken into 8 sectionals for Class AA and 87 teams for Class A. That would make it 32 and 124. It has its merits. Question for those of you that might know, why are there more than 64 teams in Class AA?

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

He's basically saying take the top 32, break them into 8 sectionals. Currently there are 69 teams broken into 8 sectionals for Class AA and 87 teams for Class A. That would make it 32 and 124. It has its merits. Question for those of you that might know, why are there more than 64 teams in Class AA?

Class A teams can opt up (Hill-Murray, Roseau, BSM are the three who immediately come to mind) to AA but class AA teams cannot opt down.

bigblue - I know. And it's not that I don't like your idea.....

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Class A teams can opt up (Hill-Murray, Roseau, BSM are the three who come to mind) to AA but class AA teams cannot opt down.

bigblue - I know. And it's not that I don't like your idea.....

It just seems that they would figure out who is playing up in a given year and then figure out what the largest 64 schools are including the play ups and set it that way.

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

It just seems that they would figure out who is playing up in a given year and then figure out what the largest 64 schools are including the play ups and set it that way.

It would but I assume the MSHSL doesn't want enrollment "bubble" teams to move up/down depending on the year so the they choose to assign the top 64 by enrollment to AA and then others can join if they want too.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Are there 5 teams that play up? That seems like too many. Roseau, Hill-Murray and Benilde were already mentioned. Does Cretin-Derham Hall play up? Other than that I can't even think of any possibilities, unless some of the schools up north have gotten smaller and opted to stay AA, like Grand Rapids, Moorhead or Bemidji.

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

CDH must be slotted AA since they play 5A football.
What about Duluth East and Cloquet?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

CDH must be slotted AA since they play 5A football.
What about Duluth East and Cloquet?

Isn't Cloquet a co-op, Cloquet, Esko and Carlton? I don't know if Cloquet is big enough for AA even with those 3 combined, good guess. I'd expect Duluth East to be big enough, though.

 

[moose97]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Are there 5 teams that play up? That seems like too many. Roseau, Hill-Murray and Benilde were already mentioned. Does Cretin-Derham Hall play up? Other than that I can't even think of any possibilities, unless some of the schools up north have gotten smaller and opted to stay AA, like Grand Rapids, Moorhead or Bemidji.

AA enrollment is >=1342
A is <1342

Bemidji - 1144
BSM - 889
Cloquet/Esko/Carlton - 1160 (combined)
Cretin - 1322
Grand Rapids - 978
Hill-Murray - 814
Roseau - 393

There is no requirement that if you opt up in one sport that you have to opt up in another (CDH 5A football and AA hockey is purely their choice, not a requirement. Also, the commitment for opting up is now 2 years (it used to be 4). That was done to encourage more schools to do so, since there is such flux from one year to the next. Example, under the 4 year plan, an A school may think that they have a good group of kids comming up (maybe a Soph. or Jr. class), but they'd be reluctant to opt-up since they'd be stuck at AA past the time they may be good. As a 2 year commitment, they can opt-up for that calss' last two seasons, then drop back down if they don't think they can compete at the higher level. That's part of the reason Totino opted from AAAA to AAAAA for football. If it doesn't work out for '11 and '12, they can drop back in a couple years time.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's the full list.

FYI:
Duluth East -1396
Moorhead - 1454

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

AA enrollment is >=1342
A is <1342

Bemidji - 1144
BSM - 889
Cloquet/Esko/Carlton - 1160 (combined)
Cretin - 1322
Grand Rapids - 978
Hill-Murray - 814
Roseau - 393

There is no requirement that if you opt up in one sport that you have to opt up in another (CDH 5A football and AA hockey is purely their choice, not a requirement. Also, the commitment for opting up is now 2 years (it used to be 4). That was done to encourage more schools to do so, since there is such flux from one year to the next. Example, under the 4 year plan, an A school may think that they have a good group of kids comming up (maybe a Soph. or Jr. class), but they'd be reluctant to opt-up since they'd be stuck at AA past the time they may be good. As a 2 year commitment, they can opt-up for that calss' last two seasons, then drop back down if they don't think they can compete at the higher level. That's part of the reason Totino opted from AAAA to AAAAA for football. If it doesn't work out for '11 and '12, they can drop back in a couple years time.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's the full list.

FYI:
Duluth East -1396
Moorhead - 1454

Thanks Moose, that is exactly the info we were looking for!

It looks like we picked the right schools with our guesses, but we didn't have any clue if we were right. Every time I see the enrollment numbers, I'm reminded how badass Roseau is. To think they won it all just a couple years ago. **** impressive program they have up there.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

AA enrollment is >=1342
A is <1342

Bemidji - 1144
BSM - 889
Cloquet/Esko/Carlton - 1160 (combined)
Cretin - 1322
Grand Rapids - 978
Hill-Murray - 814
Roseau - 393

There is no requirement that if you opt up in one sport that you have to opt up in another (CDH 5A football and AA hockey is purely their choice, not a requirement. Also, the commitment for opting up is now 2 years (it used to be 4). That was done to encourage more schools to do so, since there is such flux from one year to the next. Example, under the 4 year plan, an A school may think that they have a good group of kids comming up (maybe a Soph. or Jr. class), but they'd be reluctant to opt-up since they'd be stuck at AA past the time they may be good. As a 2 year commitment, they can opt-up for that calss' last two seasons, then drop back down if they don't think they can compete at the higher level. That's part of the reason Totino opted from AAAA to AAAAA for football. If it doesn't work out for '11 and '12, they can drop back in a couple years time.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's the full list.

FYI:
Duluth East -1396
Moorhead - 1454

Ok but that's too many then...there were 69 teams in the section tournaments not the 64+7=71 that your list would suggest?

 

[moose97]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Ok but that's too many then...there were 69 teams in the section tournaments not the 64+7=71 that your list would suggest?

Part of that, I'm guessing, that when section assignments were put together, certain schools offered hockey (I'm thinking Minneapolis West and East and now just one Mpls HS team) and now don't. The current assignments were done before the '09-'10 season and aren't changed (outside of school closings or schools not offering sports anymore) until this spring. That, or there could be a case of a school losing enrollment via a co-op being dissolved, and thus going under the AA cut-off...

Don't know what the second one is for sure, but Mpls is definatly one of the two you're looking for. Maybe Northern Lakes (Crosby-Ironton/Pequot Lakes/Aitkin/Pine River-Backus)? They used to be 8AA but are now 6A... The more I think about it, I seem to remember the season starting in '09-'10 with them assigned to 8AA and then they re-did enrollment at some point after the season got going the and MSHSL figured them as an A school.

As an example of dramatic enrollment change, look at 7AAAA football. Duluth East, Denfeld and Central were all in that section in 2009, but East moved up to Class AAAAA this past year due to the dramatic enrollment change of Denfeld being closed for this school year, leaving only Central in 7AAAA.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

I say split the state into 16 sections and have a sweet 16 ****it! No A, no AA just no holds barred hockey like the old days! Sure a lot of small schools will get rolled when they face Eden Praririe or HM in the first round but can you imagine the crowds you will see?

MSHSL killed the basketball tourny when they split it up into different levels. The years they did the Sweet 16 (when teams like Staples-Motley and Ricori and others made runs and would face North) were the best years by far. I didnt even mind when my Armstrong Falcons lost to CDH in the first round because it was just cool to make the State Tourny.

 

[moose97]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

I say split the state into 16 sections and have a sweet 16 ****it! No A, no AA just no holds barred hockey like the old days! Sure a lot of small schools will get rolled when they face Eden Praririe or HM in the first round but can you imagine the crowds you will see?

MSHSL killed the basketball tourny when they split it up into different levels. The years they did the Sweet 16 (when teams like Staples-Motley and Ricori and others made runs and would face North) were the best years by far. I didnt even mind when my Armstrong Falcons lost to CDH in the first round because it was just cool to make the State Tourny.

Never happen....

Heck, they're talking about adding another football class (largest 32, then the normal 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, A and 9-man). You'll never get traction amongst the powers that be to go back to what it once was.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

I say split the state into 16 sections and have a sweet 16 ****it! No A, no AA just no holds barred hockey like the old days! Sure a lot of small schools will get rolled when they face Eden Praririe or HM in the first round but can you imagine the crowds you will see?

MSHSL killed the basketball tourny when they split it up into different levels. The years they did the Sweet 16 (when teams like Staples-Motley and Ricori and others made runs and would face North) were the best years by far. I didnt even mind when my Armstrong Falcons lost to CDH in the first round because it was just cool to make the State Tourny.

I couldn't agree more...all of these classes are just silly.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Never happen....

Heck, they're talking about adding another football class (largest 32, then the normal 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, A and 9-man). You'll never get traction amongst the powers that be to go back to what it once was.

All because we have to have more opportunities for athletes to "win it all." It's on the same level as not keeping score at younger ages...

 

[Dalangalang]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

A little off subject, but Wisconsin added another class...oops I mean Division to their boys B-ball tourney this year...Divisions 1,2,3,4,5:

Division 1 - schools with an enrollment of more than 1,200
Division 2 - schools with an enrollment of 600 to 1,200
Division 3 - schools with an enrollment of 328 to 600
Division 4 - schools with an enrollment of 200 to 327
Division 5 - schools with enrollments below 200

A bit ridiculous in my mind...

Back to the subject, anyone going to make some predictions for the tournaments???

 

[moose97]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

All because we have to have more opportunities for athletes to "win it all." It's on the same level as not keeping score at younger ages...

Now here I'm gonna disagree.

I do think that there are too many classes for some sports, but the very idea of classes? That I do agree with. To say that a small school like maybe Roseau can compete in every sport with the resources of say Eden Prairie is pretty absurd. In one or maybe even two? Sure, but have you ever been to the EPHS campus? Seen how much they can offer, let alone how many students they have? How 'bout Roseau HS? How many of you have been there and think that that is a fair fight in any sport besides hockey? And you can make similar arguments for other sports - say Braham in basketball is typically pretty good, or Steven-Argyle in football. Teams that could compete no matter what class you put them in, but only in the one sport.

An example of the differences between classes I've given in the past is the year 2001. Bemidji had a really good football team that year and won 8AAAAA. They only lost a couple games all year, but in the state quarterfinals, they got destroyed by Wayzata and Marion Barber III - a team that didn't even make the AAAAA title game - 55-7. During the regular season, they happened to play Detroit Lakes, who went on to win the AAAA state title. What happened? Bemidji won something like 35-14.

Now, should you have to be good to win state? Of course, but with in reason. I support two class hockey, three (not 4) class basketball and don't have a problem with the current set-up for football (but don't want to see a "super large school" class added).

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Minnesota High School Hockey '10-'11

Now here I'm gonna disagree.

I do think that there are too many classes for some sports, but the very idea of classes? That I do agree with. To say that a small school like maybe Roseau can compete in every sport with the resources of say Eden Prairie is pretty absurd. In one or maybe even two? Sure, but have you ever been to the EPHS campus? Seen how much they can offer, let alone how many students they have? How 'bout Roseau HS? How many of you have been there and think that that is a fair fight in any sport besides hockey? And you can make similar arguments for other sports - say Braham in basketball is typically pretty good, or Steven-Argyle in football. Teams that could compete no matter what class you put them in, but only in the one sport.

An example of the differences between classes I've given in the past is the year 2001. Bemidji had a really good football team that year and won 8AAAAA. They only lost a couple games all year, but in the state quarterfinals, they got destroyed by Wayzata and Marion Barber III - a team that didn't even make the AAAAA title game - 55-7. During the regular season, they happened to play Detroit Lakes, who went on to win the AAAA state title. What happened? Bemidji won something like 35-14.

Now, should you have to be good to win state? Of course, but with in reason. I support two class hockey, three (not 4) class basketball and don't have a problem with the current set-up for football (but don't want to see a "super large school" class added).

I agree with what you have to say here, but if the point of the class system is separate schools into classes with similar financial means, then shouldn't the league actually split the schools by financial means instead of enrollment? Yes this is a comment about private schools playing in classes that are too low.