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Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
- Thread starter ExileOnDaytonStreet
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Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
So, six folks or so are against it that you've shown. You really have a gauge on Arizona law enforcement. Apparently you didn't read the websites I cited, which represent thousands and thousands of rank-and-file, and who are strongly in support of it. Don't assume a few politicos represent what most people think. As I said, you don't know what's going on in Arizona.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Again, you really don't get Arizona at all. Even the liberal Dem politicians are showing signs of talking tough on immigration here. The Hispanics vote in low percentages and thus don't have nearly the impact in elections one would think from their numbers. Governor Brewer's numbers have gone up significantly since she signed the bill. To be tough on immigration is a big political win right now in Arizona, like it or not.
Again, you really don't get Arizona at all. Even the liberal Dem politicians are showing signs of talking tough on immigration here. The Hispanics vote in low percentages and thus don't have nearly the impact in elections one would think from their numbers. Governor Brewer's numbers have gone up significantly since she signed the bill. To be tough on immigration is a big political win right now in Arizona, like it or not.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Bad to whom? Other than from hard left Dems, I don't see much outrage about what's happened so far. In any case, I doubt immigration will be a high priority item on voters' minds in non-border states because the economy will dwarf everything. If we're still dealing with ~10% unemployment (16-17% real unemployment) in the fall, the Democrats might be kissing their majority in the House goodbye.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Poll I found about the Arizona law:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...e_public_really_thinks_about_immigration.html
51% said it was about right, 9% said it didn't go far enough, and 36% opposed it.
So, that's 60-36 in favor of Arizona's approach - looks like the majority is on their side, at least in that poll (and it was done by the NYT/CBS, not some shady tool of the racist Right
).
Has a comprehensive poll been done to ask them about it? They might very well be divided on the issue.
Poll I found about the Arizona law:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...e_public_really_thinks_about_immigration.html
51% said it was about right, 9% said it didn't go far enough, and 36% opposed it.
So, that's 60-36 in favor of Arizona's approach - looks like the majority is on their side, at least in that poll (and it was done by the NYT/CBS, not some shady tool of the racist Right
).
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Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
When you break it down you have a lot of different reasons and interests going on here. In general though you have to see some of this through the prism in that they feel the need to protect the illegals to protect themselves because they see it through the prism of race... whites versus them. You also have to realize that not Hispanic got here legally or are advanced generations of those who did come illegally... anchor babies who grow to be adults, those subject to the amnesty of 1985 so on. You also have to realize that minorities tend to latch on the Democratic party as their protectors against the racist Republicans (my grandmother only a few years ago told me the Republicans are the party of the white people). Since they've latched onto the Dems they've also latched onto their ideas. So, when you look at it, I think that is generally responsible for what we see in regards to illegal immigration.
I don't think its a simple problem... it certainly is a mixed swamp of interests and concerns. The "hispanics" are such a differentiated group swining from the Antillies to the Baja to the southern tip of Chile where you start seeing penguins.
I think the primary issue is the racism issue... which is why Democrats keep amplifying the specter of racism. Hispanics fear the "lump them all into one pod" mentality and they feel that it will come for them. Remember that people are most interested in themselves and their families... but mostly themselves. To them, they feel that progression in the Republican direction will harm them. This is why I still feel, and continually feel, that conservatives need to hammer on the reasons and ideals. The dirty little secret is that the ideals and ideas of conservatism are race independent. The even dirtier little secret is all the "racists" have a fairly decent mortality rate these days and are becoming nothing more than the unchanged assumptions of a progressive's mind.
When you break it down you have a lot of different reasons and interests going on here. In general though you have to see some of this through the prism in that they feel the need to protect the illegals to protect themselves because they see it through the prism of race... whites versus them. You also have to realize that not Hispanic got here legally or are advanced generations of those who did come illegally... anchor babies who grow to be adults, those subject to the amnesty of 1985 so on. You also have to realize that minorities tend to latch on the Democratic party as their protectors against the racist Republicans (my grandmother only a few years ago told me the Republicans are the party of the white people). Since they've latched onto the Dems they've also latched onto their ideas. So, when you look at it, I think that is generally responsible for what we see in regards to illegal immigration.
I don't think its a simple problem... it certainly is a mixed swamp of interests and concerns. The "hispanics" are such a differentiated group swining from the Antillies to the Baja to the southern tip of Chile where you start seeing penguins.
I think the primary issue is the racism issue... which is why Democrats keep amplifying the specter of racism. Hispanics fear the "lump them all into one pod" mentality and they feel that it will come for them. Remember that people are most interested in themselves and their families... but mostly themselves. To them, they feel that progression in the Republican direction will harm them. This is why I still feel, and continually feel, that conservatives need to hammer on the reasons and ideals. The dirty little secret is that the ideals and ideas of conservatism are race independent. The even dirtier little secret is all the "racists" have a fairly decent mortality rate these days and are becoming nothing more than the unchanged assumptions of a progressive's mind.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
A big factor is that Hispanics are very family oriented (a real positive in my book), and it's very common to have an extended family encompass both legal and illegal people. So, a legal person's view is strongly influenced by their desire to have their family members who are here illegally to continue to be here if they so wish.
A big factor is that Hispanics are very family oriented (a real positive in my book), and it's very common to have an extended family encompass both legal and illegal people. So, a legal person's view is strongly influenced by their desire to have their family members who are here illegally to continue to be here if they so wish.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
The country should be so lucky.
The country should be so lucky.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
The Hmong are like that too. I'm sure there are a ton of illegal Hmong in the Twin Cities (Mpls/St Paul) area, and they really stick together. A co-worker of mine is Hmong, and it is my understanding that it's a sort of tradition where the first born stays with the family until he gets married, period. That sort of thing.
The Hmong are like that too. I'm sure there are a ton of illegal Hmong in the Twin Cities (Mpls/St Paul) area, and they really stick together. A co-worker of mine is Hmong, and it is my understanding that it's a sort of tradition where the first born stays with the family until he gets married, period. That sort of thing.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Awesome copout.
Awesome copout.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
In the past, big defense spending was a conservative ideal (it is now helping to bankrupt the country). Entitlement spending has long been a liberal ideal, and it too is bankrupting the country. Congratulations to both sides of the political spectrum for faithfully leading us into this debacle.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Isn't that why "divestment" was invented? I mean, if its good enough for South Africa and Israel then it should work here, right?
Isn't that why "divestment" was invented? I mean, if its good enough for South Africa and Israel then it should work here, right?
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Exactly. I mean, like they've been saying, this law is totally on par with apartheid, so it stands to reason that if they were truly standing lockstep with the "undocumented migrants," they'd divest from AZ in a hurry.
Isn't that why "divestment" was invented? I mean, if its good enough for South Africa and Israel then it should work here, right?
Exactly. I mean, like they've been saying, this law is totally on par with apartheid, so it stands to reason that if they were truly standing lockstep with the "undocumented migrants," they'd divest from AZ in a hurry.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
California had this same debate when they were talking up their move toward clean and renewable energy, but they decided the cheap coal and nuke power from Arizona and elsewhere was too valuable and didn't divest.
Isn't that why "divestment" was invented? I mean, if its good enough for South Africa and Israel then it should work here, right?
California had this same debate when they were talking up their move toward clean and renewable energy, but they decided the cheap coal and nuke power from Arizona and elsewhere was too valuable and didn't divest.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
So, they only oppose it because they are politicos...but it's bad politics to be against it....so the chief of police in Phoenix must be really bad at politics. Or he wants a different job somewhere else.
So, they only oppose it because they are politicos...but it's bad politics to be against it....so the chief of police in Phoenix must be really bad at politics. Or he wants a different job somewhere else.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
They'd really like to 1) not get sued... 2) lose that lawsuit... 3) have to pay for that lawsuit... 4) with their jobs and careers.
That's all they are concerned about... because morons wearing robes will do something stupid that will cost the city or town or county millions of dollars.
edit: there will be judges out there looking to do their political good deed by turfing this law regardless of merit... if I were the police chiefs I'd be very afraid because somebody will be hunting for their jobs and it won't be their own fault. The problem will be that the judge will decide that he's the executive of the state of Arizona or congress.
They'd really like to 1) not get sued... 2) lose that lawsuit... 3) have to pay for that lawsuit... 4) with their jobs and careers.
That's all they are concerned about... because morons wearing robes will do something stupid that will cost the city or town or county millions of dollars.
edit: there will be judges out there looking to do their political good deed by turfing this law regardless of merit... if I were the police chiefs I'd be very afraid because somebody will be hunting for their jobs and it won't be their own fault. The problem will be that the judge will decide that he's the executive of the state of Arizona or congress.
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legal_hit
How far is heaven?
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
I have some concerns about the new Arizona laws. More the enforcement one than the one on education. I understand that the state has serious issues with illegal immigration, but I just worry about how some parts of this law are going to be enforced.
I disagree. They may not income or other payroll taxes. But they pay sales tax, gas taxes and other such taxes at the same rate as the rest of us. Assuming they are not homeless, they pay property taxes, either directly as homeowners or indirectly as part of their rent. Since these are the taxes that most directly support local governments I would disagree that they are not taxpayers.
I have some concerns about the new Arizona laws. More the enforcement one than the one on education. I understand that the state has serious issues with illegal immigration, but I just worry about how some parts of this law are going to be enforced.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Next up on Arizona's radar: Teachers with accents
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/22/arizona-seeks-reassign-heavily-accented-teachers/
Next up on Arizona's radar: Teachers with accents
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/22/arizona-seeks-reassign-heavily-accented-teachers/
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
I don't have a problem with this either though this is treading the line. If the student can't understand the teacher, and the class is not an immersion program, then having that teacher in the classroom defeats the point. Though obviously I can see where this can be abused.
I don't have a problem with this either though this is treading the line. If the student can't understand the teacher, and the class is not an immersion program, then having that teacher in the classroom defeats the point. Though obviously I can see where this can be abused.
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