Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't know about the Arizona folks but I have seen a number of police chiefs from various cities over the last few weeks that are uncomfortable with the law.

Of course. But having discomfort doesn't mean something is bad or wrong. Even a lot of people who support it have some level of discomfort, and would certainly rather not be doing this, but when the feds fail so much, the states have to try something.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Of course. But having discomfort doesn't mean something is bad or wrong. Even a lot of people who support it have some level of discomfort, and would certainly rather not be doing this, but when the feds fail so much, the states have to try something.

Not arguing the point, just saying that it is hitting the media. It would seem that the chiefs are concerned that this might start a trend. Here in Mass the cosmo boy Senator and the Rep candidate for governor have both said the law is OK for AZ but would not be OK here. Hows the fence in their crotch feeling?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Dude, its not manditory, its optional coursework. What is it about conservatives love for government interference anyways?

There was a sorry chapter in our country's history that involved "whites only" and "coloreds only". Do you really want to go back to that? Aiming coursework at specific ethnic groups is a step in that direction.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

There was a sorry chapter in our country's history that involved "whites only" and "coloreds only". Do you really want to go back to that? Aiming coursework at specific ethnic groups is a step in that direction.

I one were to REALLY spin this we could go back to the Rand Paul/Ron Paul discussion in one of the other threads. After all, going to discriminatory places is optional.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I one were to REALLY spin this we could go back to the Rand Paul/Ron Paul discussion in one of the other threads. After all, going to discriminatory places is optional.

That was concerning private business. Isn't this curriculum in a public school system? Attendance in public schools is compulsory.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You really don't know much about what's going on in Arizona do you? A few police chiefs are going against it for political purposes....

What are you talking about?

Phoenix Police Chief has said, "The Phoenix Police Department is in opposition to the law as it is written"

Coconino (Flagstaff) calls the bill a "bad idea"

Tucson Police Chief "This is an unfunded mandate on us, to transport (suspected illegal immigrants), that takes our officers away from our primary responsibility which is lcoal law enforcement and local public safety"

I already showed a handful of folks in the Mesa police dept against this, while past Mesa Police Chief says the bill will have "catastrophic consequences for community policing".

...and we've already discussed other county police depts that have come out against the bill. Even the Arizona Association of Police Chiefs is against the bill.

I'm not that opposed to this bill. But there is plenty of concern within Arizona police departments about the impact of the bill on crime prevention.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

There was a sorry chapter in our country's history that involved "whites only" and "coloreds only". Do you really want to go back to that? Aiming coursework at specific ethnic groups is a step in that direction.

Leave it to conservatives to confuse an extension of slavery where services are limited or eliminated for a disadvantaged minority under the threat of violence...and an offer of very limited cirriculum available for and about a disadvantaged minority. As nearly all of history/culture taught in the US highschools is of a white caucasian nature, offering this cirriculum is a move in the opposite direction of what you suggest.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Leave it to conservatives to not understand the difference between an extension of slavery where service is limited or eliminated to a disadvantaged minority under the threat of violence...and an offer of very limited cirriculum available for and about a disadvantaged minority. As nearly all of history/culture taught in the US highschools is of a white caucasian nature, offering this cirriculum is a move in the opposite direction of what you suggest.

So you're saying its racist, but its racist in the right direction?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So you're saying its racist, but its racist in the right direction?

I don't know that I'd say that legislation banning ethnic studies is racist but it certainly is legislation unecessarily against minorities and I could imagine racists supporting it.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't know that I'd say that legislation banning ethnic studies is racist but it certainly is legislation unecessarily against minorities and I could imagine racists supporting it.

You're part of the problem when you deliberately call it "legislation banning ethnic studies." That's not what the law does and you know it.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't know that I'd say that legislation banning ethnic studies is racist but it certainly is legislation unecessarily against minorities and I could imagine racists supporting it.

Funny... I could imagine racists being against this legislation.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You're part of the problem when you deliberately call it "legislation banning ethnic studies." That's not what the law does and you know it.

OK...it bans 'programs of instruction designed for pupils of a particular ethnic group':

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
----
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

OK...it bans 'programs of instruction designed for pupils of a particular ethnic group':

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
----
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.

Right. So what exactly is wrong with saying that schools cannot have separate but equal classes for pupils of different ethnic groups?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

...and an offer of very limited cirriculum available for and about a disadvantaged minority.

They can get all that BS coursework they want in college. We should not be subsidizing this in the public K-12 education system. Plus as soon as you allow coursework for one ethnic group, you'll have to allow it for ALL ethnic groups. That includes the white ones. I can't imagine how that would become problematic, can you?

As nearly all of history/culture taught in the US highschools is of a white caucasian nature, offering this cirriculum is a move in the opposite direction of what you suggest.

I'd like to see proof of this, given that I know **** well the history I took in high school wasn't "nearly all of a white / caucasian nature".

Offering ethnic group-specific courses is segregationist as it is no longer treating all students as being equal by denying them access to courses based on their skin color / heritage.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Funny... I could imagine racists being against this legislation.

I guess we'll let the country decide...and no question, Arizona will come out looking bad on this one.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Right. So what exactly is wrong with saying that schools cannot have separate but equal classes for pupils of different ethnic groups?

What's wrong with having cirriculum that communities find of particular value? Do Hispanics not pay enough taxes?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I guess we'll let the country decide...and no question, Arizona will come out looking bad on this one.

Just like they came out looking bad on the immigration bill? The same bill poll after poll finds a majority of the country in favor of?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Just like they came out looking bad on the immigration bill? The same bill poll after poll finds a majority of the country in favor of?

The fallout for the state of Arizona will happen all the same. And politically, I wouldn't expect the polls to be reflective of the size of the Hispanic population in 2012...and I don't expect this to be a top two issue among whites as it will be among minorities nationwide. Good luck with you're no impact POV!

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

What's wrong with having cirriculum that communities find of particular value? Do Hispanics not pay enough taxes?

the illegals don't pay any...

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The fallout for the state of Arizona will happen all the same. And politically, I wouldn't expect the polls to be reflective of the size of the Hispanic population in 2012...and I don't expect this to be a top two issue among whites as it will be among minorities nationwide. Good luck with you're no impact POV!

What's wrong with having cirriculum that communities find of particular value? Do Hispanics not pay enough taxes?

See... this is all you need to know folks... its OK to be racist if you happen to be a minority. Its OK to support racial supremacism if you are a minority. After all you need to use that grievance leverage against the majority which invariably must be doing something bad to you.

BTW, 5mn... you may be right on the first quoted section that I've put here. But don't exactly count that as a credit for the march of anti-racism and tolerance. This entire movement is being carried on the march of ethnic tribalism in the eyes of the minority groups... only to white people do they see it as a march towards colorblindness... otherwise such a phenomena wouldn't occur. Hispanics aren't looking for the colorblind society... they're looking out for their racial brothers. This is the exact opposite direction of the goals of a melting pot society.

As for the second quoted section. Interesting way to go about it. Again, you admit that the hispanic community should have in itself the right to be racist or make race a focal point of teaching. While the backgrounds of the persons being taught is certainly undeniable and certainly isn't reasonable the problem is that it is invariably cast in terms of "us versus them"... otherwise you wouldn't need to pigeonhole the lesson to those of a particular ethnic background. I think the general assumption that localities should pander towards racist belief should be unconscionable to the modern liberal though clearly it isn't. But, the rest does come down to the question of "who has the right to set education". I would say that if schools are indeed enshrined at the state level then the state does in fact get that call. If the schools want to divorce themselves from that they should take it up with community and the leaders of the state.

Bottom line is that you are invariably supporting a ethnocentrism ideal for some unclear purpose which is at odds of the melting-pot society. Further these ideals are core to the notions of ethnic division as then the question becomes "What does God need with a spacestation?" "Why do we need an ethnocentric lesson plan"... what does this provide the community at large that it didn't have and couldn't get in another manner? Do we have to appeal towards their inner tribalist notions to spur improvement?

If so, it would seem to say that racism and ethnicism is in fact an irremovable part of man. Do we really want to go there?