Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Bill]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

(I'm not one but) The babyboomers are a lot of things. They advanced society of the country/world through civil rights and womens equality, patriots in fighting Vietnam war and innovators driving amazing technology such as the PC, cell phone and internet economy. But yes...they also went along ways to setting precidents for an eternal political animosity towards themselves and paving the road to national bankruptcy.

Tons of good and bad...but definitely changed America.

It was pre-boomers FDR and LBJ who started us down the road to BK. They signed SS and Medicare/Medicaid into law.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

It was pre-boomers FDR and LBJ who started us down the road to BK. They signed SS and Medicare/Medicaid into law.

In fairness, I'm not sure either of them would have imagined what those programs have now become. Both were much more modest in scope when originally conceived (as are many government programs).

On the boomers, yes, they are a real mixed bag, both good and bad. But, in my book the debt overhang, intergenerational financial raiding, etc. outweighs the substantial good they've done.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

In fairness, I'm not sure either of them would have imagined what those programs have now become. Both were much more modest in scope when originally conceived (as are many government programs).

No, like most liberals they expected their noble modest ideals to lead to a better society. Oops.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

No, like most liberals they expected their noble modest ideals to lead to a better society. Oops.

Whereas most conservatives know their noble and modest ideals lead to a worse society.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The solution to the illegal immigration is I hate to say it some form of guest-worker program. Basically create a 2nd class citizen ... they have all the rights including paying taxes but cab't vote and can't run for office. If they want to become full citizen they still have to file and wait wait wait for it.

So we open up the border and let the masses of hungry freedom seekers workers into our country. compassion, charity, humility, humanity to let them in but remove the right to vote so we keep control of our country.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Whereas most conservatives know their noble and modest ideals lead to a worse society.

employment is a terrible idea

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The solution to the illegal immigration is I hate to say it some form of guest-worker program. Basically create a 2nd class citizen ... they have all the rights including paying taxes but cab't vote and can't run for office. If they want to become full citizen they still have to file and wait wait wait for it.

So we open up the border and let the masses of hungry freedom seekers workers into our country. compassion, charity, humility, humanity to let them in but remove the right to vote so we keep control of our country.

Interesting proposition.

But I'm guessing the problem is not how to treat the large group...but how to limit the sheer numbers that want to come work here. Otherwise...why not just massively increase green cards? I believe it gets to a similar outcome.

Moving right along...pretty wide ranging, interesting article on SB1070 by Fox:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010...law-phoenix-tuscon-tony-snow-bush-department/

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The solution to the illegal immigration is I hate to say it some form of guest-worker program. Basically create a 2nd class citizen ... they have all the rights including paying taxes but cab't vote and can't run for office. If they want to become full citizen they still have to file and wait wait wait for it.

So we open up the border and let the masses of hungry freedom seekers workers into our country. compassion, charity, humility, humanity to let them in but remove the right to vote so we keep control of our country.

How do countries like Germany manage their guest worker programs? (I know this is also an EU issue, although that might only govern when the worker comes from another EU member nation). Certainly, they have all the rights. Do they really have "all the privileges," or are they essentially on visit visas?

 

[MavKato]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Gov. Bill Ritter Jr. of Colorado, a Democrat, was quoted by the Times as saying. "This is an issue that divides us politically, and I'm hopeful that their strategy doesn't do that in a way that makes it more difficult for candidates to get elected, particularly in the West."

Democrat Governors are now worried about the President's lawsuit against AZ affecting their reelection prospects.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/governors-obamas-immigration-suit-toxic/

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

How do countries like Germany manage their guest worker programs? (I know this is also an EU issue, although that might only govern when the worker comes from another EU member nation). Certainly, they have all the rights. Do they really have "all the privileges," or are they essentially on visit visas?

That's the way I understand it (granted, I'm about as ignorant on the issue as any of the rest of you).

In either case, I'm willing to bet that a sizeable chunk of the illegal population is of the mindset that they don't want to be documented period, whether through a work visa or other documentation. Whether that represents 15 or 95% of the illegal population, I couldn't tell you. But the logic certainly follows, doesn't it?

In other news: idiocy. If a guy get's deported for being an illegal alien after a traffic stop, the traffic violation isn't the reason he's getting deported. It's the reason he got caught. Big difference.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

In either case, I'm willing to bet that a sizeable chunk of the illegal population is of the mindset that they don't want to be documented period, whether through a work visa or other documentation. Whether that represents 15 or 95% of the illegal population, I couldn't tell you. But the logic certainly follows, doesn't it?

I figure they are here illegally because it's an advantage to be here, not because it's an advantage to be here illegally. Having a legal status would be far preferable. They could live in the open, cross back and forth to visit family, not be threatened with blackmail or exploited in the workplace, not to mention they would lose the stigma of illegality itself. They could also document their work history and references when moving between employers -- here illegally, they lose their work history. Imagine if every job you applied for you couldn't list any experience on your resume. You'd be stuck in starting slots forever.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I figure they are here illegally because it's an advantage to be here, not because it's an advantage to be here illegally. Having a legal status would be far preferable. They could live in the open, cross back and forth to visit family, not be threatened with blackmail or exploited in the workplace, not to mention they would lose the stigma of illegality itself. They could also document their work history and references when moving between employers -- here illegally, they lose their work history. Imagine if every job you applied for you couldn't list any experience on your resume. You'd be stuck in starting slots forever.

I think it's a mixed bag. Some would jump at the chance for citizenship, some only want to work here, but eventually return to Mexico.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I think it's a mixed bag. Some would jump at the chance for citizenship, some only want to work here, but eventually return to Mexico.

Probably, but that's not the choice I'm talking about, though. I was responding to the assertion that some would prefer to remain undocumented and illegal as opposed to being documented as non-citizen-track guest workers. The only people I can think of who would prefer to stay totally undocumented would be people who were afraid of the law for other reasons -- on the lam for some reason other than immigration status (for example, drug dealers).

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I figure they are here illegally because it's an advantage to be here, not because it's an advantage to be here illegally. Having a legal status would be far preferable. They could live in the open, cross back and forth to visit family, not be threatened with blackmail or exploited in the workplace, not to mention they would lose the stigma of illegality itself. They could also document their work history and references when moving between employers -- here illegally, they lose their work history. Imagine if every job you applied for you couldn't list any experience on your resume. You'd be stuck in starting slots forever.

I don't doubt anything you've said in either of your responses on the topic here.

But here's the thing, from where I sit: there's already such a huge incentive for these folks to do it the right way, yet they come here illegally still. Being on the lam, or having other reasons to avoid authorities is undoubtedly one reason, but there's bound to be a great many others as well.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't doubt anything you've said in either of your responses on the topic here.

But here's the thing, from where I sit: there's already such a huge incentive for these folks to do it the right way, yet they come here illegally still. Being on the lam, or having other reasons to avoid authorities is undoubtedly one reason, but there's bound to be a great many others as well.

Are there illegal immigrants who migrate here because of criminal opportunities, or because they may be hunted elsewhere? I'm sure there are some who fit that description. Are you correct there is a huge incentive to come here the right way, legally? Absolutely, for reasons including those mentioned by Kepler.

Why do people come here illegally, even in light of the huge incentive to come here legally? Because they can't come here legally, for all practical purposes. Sure, if you're an internal medicine specialist from India and the Mayo Clinic wants you to work for them, or you play baseball and you're from the Dominican Republic and the Yankees want you to play for them, you'll be on the fast track to citizenship or a green card. But if you're only capable of picking oranges in So Cal or killing pigs in the midwest, good luck. You'd be better off playing the powerball.

The immigration policy is such that they are simply rejected in their efforts to come here legally. If you can't come here legally, and if the only consequence is getting shipped home if you come here illegally and are caught, you create a perfect recipe for the mess we have right now.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Democrat Governors are now worried about the President's lawsuit against AZ affecting their reelection prospects.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/governors-obamas-immigration-suit-toxic/

the problem is these governors and other politicians don't realize the goal is to have themselves replaced by those more pliant to Obama down the road.

Of course, Obama doesn't realize that he won't be able to play the nation like a fiddle twice.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Good editorial on the absurdity of the feds' lawsuit against Arizona.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2010/07/13/the-audacity-against-arizona/

And it sounds like Holder is thinking of filing a second lawsuit against Arizona.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Good editorial on the absurdity of the feds' lawsuit against Arizona.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2010/07/13/the-audacity-against-arizona/

Eh, from a legal standpoint the editorial gets a few major things wrong. "Legitimate state interest" is a term of art, and means something more in legalese than how it appears at first glance. It goes towards the separation of powers argument. Generally speaking, immigration issues are the sole domain of the federal government, individual states do not have their own INS/ICE-type departments and cannot grant nor revoke visas/green papers/etc.. Thus, they have no legitimate interest in immigration issues. (now the by-products are a wholly separate issue, but good luck trying to turn the case from being about immigration to being about kidnapping in front of a federal judge - not to mention getting around that whole sovereign immunity thing).

The paragraph about it being common sense to carry around identification all the time is also completely misguided. Having your driver's license on you while driving is one thing, but if I'm walking to the corner store to buy some ice cream on a 100 degree day, there is absolutely no reason I need to have ID on me to prove I'm a citizen. Seriously, when did (most) conservatives shift their view from "no national ID - protect my privacy" to "carry your papers 24/7; it's just common sense"?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Seriously, when did (most) conservatives shift their view from "no national ID - protect my privacy" to "carry your papers 24/7; it's just common sense"?

I'm not so sure that this issue falls into typical liberal/conservative norms.

The more I see some people talk about it, the more I'm noticing that the lefties and the righties are far more split on the issue than most would be willing to admit.

Frankly, I feel like the Rs and the Ds (and their corresponding puppets in the media) are the ones that are being partisan on the issue. Which makes sense, both parties being the petulant children that they are. Most of the people I see who are sticking with the Democrats or Republicans in their criticism (or praise) of the Arizona issue tend to be the trailer park morons who just repeat what Beck or Olbermann have to say.

The rest of us, the free thinking folk, are a lot more split on the issue. For instance, I'm (pretty much) a liberal, and I'm all for what Arizona is doing.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The paragraph about it being common sense to carry around identification all the time is also completely misguided. Having your driver's license on you while driving is one thing, but if I'm walking to the corner store to buy some ice cream on a 100 degree day, there is absolutely no reason I need to have ID on me to prove I'm a citizen. Seriously, when did (most) conservatives shift their view from "no national ID - protect my privacy" to "carry your papers 24/7; it's just common sense"?

What is it with "buying ice cream" as an activity that apparently is making people suspicious? I have been hearing the "buying ice cream" scenario repeatedly since the law went into effect.

I'm split on the matter. I don't think anyone should be hassled for ID or necessarily have to carry ID, but I think carrying ID is a good idea anyway. You should shouldn't have to be forced to do so, I don't think, through some kind of national ID requirement.