Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I'm a liberal but not on illegal immigration. And have no problem with what Arizona is doing as long as it doesn't turn into enabling law enforcement to racially profile. I think they're desperate and while this law won't have much of an effect in application, more illegal immigrants will stay clear of AZ which is what AZ wanted to begin with.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I'm a liberal but not on illegal immigration. And have no problem with what Arizona is doing as long as it doesn't turn into enabling law enforcement to racially profile. I think they're desperate and while this law won't have much of an effect in application, more illegal immigrants will stay clear of AZ which is what AZ wanted to begin with.

I think the thing with the profiling concern is, any cop who does so is breaking the law they might claim to be enforcing - which is an individual concern and not really the fault of the state. I can see how that would open the state up to a lawsuit but that would be the cop's fault, not the law. The law is pretty explicit in its intolerance for profiling.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The paragraph about it being common sense to carry around identification all the time is also completely misguided. Having your driver's license on you while driving is one thing, but if I'm walking to the corner store to buy some ice cream on a 100 degree day, there is absolutely no reason I need to have ID on me to prove I'm a citizen. Seriously, when did (most) conservatives shift their view from "no national ID - protect my privacy" to "carry your papers 24/7; it's just common sense"?

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking to the store to buy something, I'll have my wallet, which will have my driver's license. Easy.

Also, unless you're planning on robbing the corner store in question (or committing some other crime), the police can't ask for your ID anyways.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

What is it with "buying ice cream" as an activity that apparently is making people suspicious? I have been hearing the "buying ice cream" scenario repeatedly since the law went into effect.

I'm split on the matter. I don't think anyone should be hassled for ID or necessarily have to carry ID, but I think carrying ID is a good idea anyway. You should shouldn't have to be forced to do so, I don't think, through some kind of national ID requirement.

Because if you're driving, you're requird to have a driver's license on you. If you are buying alcohol or cigarettes or some other age-restricted item, you may need some form of ID to prove your age.

But if you're on foot and simply buying something simple like ice cream, or a loaf of bread, or whatever; you should not and do not need to have an ID on your person. Hell, if you get cited for jaywalking and don't have an ID on you, the cops can't haul you away for that, either, unless they have reason to believe you're lying about your identity as they write up the ticket.

The point being, even if it's a good idea to have an ID on you at all times, it is not a legal requirement. And you can't use "well, it's a good idea" in order to force persons to carry one if they otherwise don't have to.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Because if you're driving, you're requird to have a driver's license on you. If you are buying alcohol or cigarettes or some other age-restricted item, you may need some form of ID to prove your age.

But if you're on foot and simply buying something simple like ice cream, or a loaf of bread, or whatever; you should not and do not need to have an ID on your person. Hell, if you get cited for jaywalking and don't have an ID on you, the cops can't haul you away for that, either, unless they have reason to believe you're lying about your identity as they write up the ticket.

The point being, even if it's a good idea to have an ID on you at all times, it is not a legal requirement. And you can't use "well, it's a good idea" in order to force persons to carry one if they otherwise don't have to.

Holy answering of a rhetorical question, Batman.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking to the store to buy something, I'll have my wallet, which will have my driver's license. Easy.

Also, unless you're planning on robbing the corner store in question (or committing some other crime), the police can't ask for your ID anyways.

My wife and I regularly go for walks around downtown Omaha. Generally speaking, she never brings anything with her unless we think we might stop for a pint at a bar.

Also, see my point below about jaywalking/littering/other menial citations.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Holy answering of a rhetorical question, Batman.

The point is "buying ice cream" is a prime example of a transaction that is not age restricted and often can be (and is) done on foot.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The point is "buying ice cream" is a prime example of a transaction that is not age restricted and often can be (and is) done on foot.

I got that, it's just not a terribly common thing for most people.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking to the store to buy something, I'll have my wallet, which will have my driver's license. Easy.

Also, unless you're planning on robbing the corner store in question (or committing some other crime), the police can't ask for your ID anyways.

Agreed. I think most people carry around ID with them most if not all the time. I can't think of when I don't have ID on me, except maybe if I'm in the yard doing yardwork, and then my ID is right in the house.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I got that, it's just not a terribly common thing for most people.

Should I have said, "going to the corner starbucks" instead?

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Agreed. I think most people carry around ID with them most if not all the time. I can't think of when I don't have ID on me, except maybe if I'm in the yard doing yardwork, and then my ID is right in the house.

Does that mean you think you should be forced to carry it, though? Again, when did the argument shift from "hell no to national ID's" to "papers, please."

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The point is "buying ice cream" is a prime example of a transaction that is not age restricted and often can be (and is) done on foot.

But it seems usually that you'd have to make a conscious decision to not take ID with you (like in your wallet where your money is to buy ice cream). I don't know why I'd say, before leaving home, "let's go get some ice cream, but let me leave my wallet home and just pull some money out of it to buy us some ice cream." Especially as I'd probably use a credit card, which I like to keep in my wallet so it doesn't get lost or anything.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Again, when did the argument shift from "hell no to national ID's" to "papers, please."

When it went from everyone's problem to just dark skinned people's.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

But it seems usually that you'd have to make a conscious decision to not take ID with you (like in your wallet where your money is to buy ice cream). I don't know why I'd say, before leaving home, "let's go get some ice cream, but let me leave my wallet home and just pull some money out of it to buy us some ice cream." Especially as I'd probably use a credit card, which I like to keep in my wallet so it doesn't get lost or anything.

That's cause you're thinking like a guy with a wallet and big pockets. There's no way in hell my wife would grab her entire purse for such a jaunt, especially if I'm along with my own wallet.

There's also times where I might just be out jogging in workout clothes and not have my wallet with me.

Point being, it happens more frequently than you're letting yourself think.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Should I have said, "going to the corner starbucks" instead?

No, I was merely commenting on my observation of the repeated use of "buying ice cream." It's not that big of a deal, I just found it humorous.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The point being, even if it's a good idea to have an ID on you at all times, it is not a legal requirement. And you can't use "well, it's a good idea" in order to force persons to carry one if they otherwise don't have to.

But for those people who are legal immigrants (green card, visa, etc) they are already forced to carry their papers with them at all times by the federal gov't. The ID issue is for those that already have a probable cause to question their legal status. One would assume that there would be reason to believe that there is reason to believe they are an immigrant already. Its just a matter of finding out if they are here legally or not.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Does that mean you think you should be forced to carry it, though? Again, when did the argument shift from "hell no to national ID's" to "papers, please."

Even in the rare occasion that I don't have an ID with me, I'm not worried. First, I'm in all likelihood not going to be doing anything that causes suspicion, so no worries there. In the very off chance that I accidentally do, I have confidence that our law enforcement authorities would provide opportunity for me to demonstrate my being here legally before I'm shipped to Mexico or wherever.

Hey, living in Arizona, where we have this problem front and center, I'd have no problem being stopped and this line of questioning being pursued, as it'd show the authorities were doing something about this massive problem. If you're here legally and you're law abiding, you've nothing to worry about. If you're not here legally and/or not law abiding, then you should have something to worry about.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

That's cause you're thinking like a guy with a wallet and big pockets. There's no way in hell my wife would grab her entire purse for such a jaunt, especially if I'm along with my own wallet.

There's also times where I might just be out jogging in workout clothes and not have my wallet with me.

Point being, it happens more frequently than you're letting yourself think.

So, your wife doesn't have ID, but you have your wallet along and empty it of anything that identifies you? You're blowing this way out of proportion. People won't always have ID with them everywhere, of course. But let's think this through more thoroughly. You need to have no ID with you, and be doing something to give the officer reasonable suspicion. And even then you'd have to have an officer come along just at that moment, a low likelihood event. And even then, if you're legal and no actually doing anything wrong, I'm sure you'd have a chance to identify yourself. To think otherwise is silly paranoia.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

My wife and I regularly go for walks around downtown Omaha. Generally speaking, she never brings anything with her unless we think we might stop for a pint at a bar.

Also, see my point below about jaywalking/littering/other menial citations.

Fair enough. I just feel weird without one personally.

I'm definitely against a national ID, but I don't think that discussion is really in play here. Immigrants are already required to carry documentation of their right to be here, the AZ law just affirms that. It's not any new requirement.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

In the very off chance that I accidentally do, I have confidence that our law enforcement authorities would provide opportunity for me to demonstrate my being here legally before I'm shipped to Mexico or wherever.
...
If you're here legally and you're law abiding, you've nothing to worry about.

Let's just say that during the course of my job I see the abuse of authority by officers if not regularly, then at least often enough that it no longer surprises me. So I'm not as confident in your assertion that they'll always act reasonably.

Also, the "if you're innocent, you've got nothing to worry about" line of reasoning means nothing to me when even a wrongful accusation is enough to ruin many a life.

Look, I'm on Arizona's side in principle in this debate. But I think the state has screwed the pooch in execution multiple times over.